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Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on Feb 26, 2014 21:27:18 GMT -5
X2... But it is gonna take money to be effective... Point blank. Money seems to be a big problem for many competitors and they'd rather complain and rationalize how broke they are then pay double the entry fee... Which is bonkers to me.
Also, it will hurt numbers... That's on the promoter to sort out.
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Post by Anthony Snook on Feb 27, 2014 12:41:59 GMT -5
True.
How much, IDK? But it's a start. Start out small then improve as needed. There are several things that can happen. If you're only gonna test at Unifieds, get promoters on board to collect a few extra $$ per entry throughout the year (you will need honest people here...) and send the money to the treasurer as the tournaments happen. Charge a testing fee/increase entry fees at the Unifieds. Take donations for testing expenses. AAA used to charge $30 to pull at their nationals. Did anyone not go because of that? It never stopped me.. Just a few things I can think of. Surely some of you smart people out there can come up with other ways.
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Post by Bill Collins on Mar 2, 2014 10:40:35 GMT -5
Motion: Anti-Doping General Policy The United States Armwrestling Federation (USAF) prohibits the use of performance enhancing drugs, anabolic agents, agents designed to mask these drugs, any substances designed for performance enhancing effects Motion was passed and is effective immediately Seeing how WAF manages their doping testing, USAF feels they needed something in place (General policy)...Right now it just say, United States Armwrestling Federation (USAF) prohibits the use of! There will be several layers to this policy, personally I like to know the functions of who, what, why, how and where before putting something out...Needless to say I voted against this policy for many reasons as Josh pointed out a few... This is not fool proof unless we follow the WADA standards and if so, people better know and understand this statement any substances designed for performance enhancing effects meaning off the shelve items you can find at your Wal-Mart,GNC etc. this needs some fine tuning and some consideration...
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Post by Simon Berriochoa on Mar 2, 2014 12:44:25 GMT -5
As indicated this is the General Policy and the initial step in developing the first anti doping policy within US Armwrestling. It is imperative that this be done in the most transparent, direct and professional manner possible. We consider this one of the most significant concerns in the world of sports today, getting this far has been years in the making, simply because this group is about the athletes and they have to be foremost in any consideration that affects them.
The inability to completely solve the problem cannot dissuade us from trying to do something to improve it. Thinking that way has held this sport back for a very long time, there is no silver bullet. If anyone should know that small advances toward solving a concern will eventually lead you to improvement and victories it should be armwrestlers. We have all been beaten by someone we had to work hard, grow mentally and focus upon in order to get past them, on the other side of them is yet another athlete, all the while those you have just conquered for the first time are going back and trying to regain their position on you, nothing worthwhile ever comes easy.
We have discussed the possibility of voluntary testing in our first run at it, we will have to weigh the issues carefully.
As far as testing and enforcement, I will state for anyone that does not know that I was on the WAF anti doping board from the inception, and I have run this testing at the WAF event, I have seen first hand the issues and concerns, the failures and the successes and I am hoping we will be able to develop a solid, transparent, fair policy that has the ability to grow and improve as each year goes by.
The lab that I do business with offers WADA quality anabolic, diuretic and narcotic panels, they are a sports testing lab and proven successful in the sport of armwrestling. Ballpark depending upon the options we select the tests will cost less than $200 per plus some collection costs.
To explain the process generally the entity of the sport oversees the room, helps with paperwork and getting the athlete through the process, however the samples are taken if full view of a third party medical collection member. The athlete remains in possession of their sample within view and control of the room, the athletes seals the sample within the view of the individual at the documentation table, once it is sealed by signature it then goes into the transit bag that is also sealed by the athlete and then the transit box, which the collection agency then sends to the lab for testing. Results are sent to the sport entity to deal with sanctions. Lost or destroyed samples, inconclusive samples etc. will all be covered in the process policy.
At present the USAF expects to cover the cost of testing, it is certainly not out of the question to think that as time goes forward that we can further formalize small increases in fees or consider a membership to increase the revenue to allow us to expand the testing to a greater number of individuals.
People always do get caught, it happens all the time every year sport after sport. Did you catch everyone that used prior to the event... no, will you ever? I doubt it. The latest advancement in testing being used now is Carbon Isotope Ratio testing, basically this test is not looking for test ratios it is simply looking for any trace of synthetic PED's I believe this was used at the EAF event where so many top athletes suddenly were caught, because even if you cycle off in time your numbers may get in line, however clearing your body of every trace of a synthetic substance is an entirely different matter.
The idea that it will hurt attendance is pure speculation, lately I have heard more people state that they have turned from the sport because they cannot compete with people that are using PED's, it is as possible that more people attend a drug tested event because they believe there is some level of parity now.
I am the first to tell anyone that an anti doping program is complicated, I have been saying that for years. It has to be transparent it has to be strong, it has to be repeatable and consistent. The WAF points at the WADA list for banned substances and is able to use WADA labs in some foreign countries but they are a far cry from WADA testing. The biggest scandal in anti doping is the politics and manipulations within the WADA program, it has been shown that tests were not handled properly, athletes were let off due to politics, the biggest issue WADA has is the tangled web they have created.
The sport does not need WADA testing I don't know many sports that do, nobody outside of WADA is doing that level of invasive testing, no one, the only thing close is the new VADA that is being launched as an alternative in professional boxing, basically if two athletes want to sign a large contract for heavily invasive WADA style testing VADA provides this, at an extremely high cost that is only viable in multimillion dollar fight deals.
The USAF is going to continue to work on a anti doping program, the goal is to exceed anything seen in this sport and to be better than anything out in our level of competition sports. The question of how good it becomes, has a lot to do with the athletes. So as athletes do you really want to take this step toward organization and striving for parity or do you want to simply have something to complain about when you do not win, or something "impossible" to point to as to why things will never be better?
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Josh McEllrath
Gold Member
National Champion
PNW Armwreckers
Posts: 508
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Post by Josh McEllrath on Mar 2, 2014 15:20:31 GMT -5
Simon, I appreciate the proactive steps forward the USAF is taking to level the playing field. I as a puller would like to see clear direction from the USAF on what would be tested for, in what quantity, and how the information would be used regarding privacy and public dissemination of positive results. WADA's testing style brings up some valid concerns, and if I read your repsonse correctly I believe that you are intending to not use that testing style.
-What style would you be using? When this is decided could you give an accurate list of substances you are testing for containing their scientific chemical and trade names, the levels of those chemicals that will fail your test program, and a clear and concise list of punishments?
-Additionally it may be beneficial to state USAF's intentions of sharing these test results with other armwrestling organizations and governing bodies internationally and nationally and who those organizations are.
-What will be the recourse for persons testing positive? Could they at their expense re-test following USAF's framework, give another sample to be tested at USAF's lab and another independent lab for an unbiased second look at the same sample collected on the same date and time?
-Since USAF appears to be shouldering these costs at this point, what events will be targeted for testing? Will a certain amount of prize money be the deciding factor? Will it be regional level tournaments? Nationals? Or will a random program be applied?
The reason I am asking the questions is that I routinely write policy at work. It is many times a thankless job, but one that must be done to be able adequately frame an organizations core values. Many times we play devils advocate against our own policy to find loopholes, and this is what I tried to do above. As a person who will gladly comply with whatever rules you come up with, I'd like to see them as clear, concise, and as easily interpreted as possible.
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Post by Simon Berriochoa on Mar 2, 2014 19:12:39 GMT -5
We have a great group on this board with very experienced individuals as for me I am a career operations guy I live in agreements, contracts and policies and we all understand how clear and concise this needs to be. I agree with you on a great many of these points.
There are still a lot of details to be debated so a lot of this is not yet put in stone however we have to be careful not to get caught up in every possible edge case.
The plan is to have a complete listing of all substances that are being tested for, we already have the lists provided by the labs per panel. Having said that, all anabolic panels test for the metabolites of substances which means it is impossible for the list to include every version of a particular substance, so there is always a wrap up statement that includes in other designer version of an already named substance as well.
Levels are really typically only addressed in conjunction with the total Testosterone or EPI levels in the body, not to a substance, you either have a detectable level of a banned substance in your system or you do not. Certainly punishments will be clearly detailed.
How the results are disclosed and to whom is still a matter of some discussion, I will say my personal experience and position is that nothing is ever to be disclosed to anyone outside of the athlete until the matter is completely determined. I am not aware of any testing program that allows a subsequent test to somehow replace the sample that was taken in competition. The process is typically that a B sample that is split off from the main sample before testing, can be again tested at the expense of the athlete, or the athlete can accept the results of the A sample test.
At this point we have not yet discussed any expansion beyond the USAF National Championship event, but I would love to see us have the ability to extend these services to other events carried on by members of the USAF.
I think it is important that the athletes continue to pose questions and offer thoughts to the testing process, clarity is the key to effective compliance.
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Don Smith
New Member
Ottawa High Hookers
Posts: 19
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Post by Don Smith on Mar 3, 2014 10:02:00 GMT -5
I happen to KNOW you don't have to take PED's to be number one in this sport. That being said. If a person is willing to drain their life force, increase chance of injury, and wash out early just to get a chance at the number one slot, I am all for it. I don't have a problem with the sport being clean if it makes the sport better. I do not believe it makes the sport better! Over and over studies have been done showing that the majority of Americans, not only don't care about steroid use, but would rather see athletes USE then have the quality of their sport decline. More important to me is that I get the best competition all the time. If someone has to take steroids to beat me GREAT! That means I am strong as hell. If I beat someone who wasn't using and lose to them after they start, that's on ME to get better, strong, faster. All those people who take steroids to beat me are only making me better. SO BRING IT!
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Post by Chris Gobby on Mar 3, 2014 10:25:07 GMT -5
Agree 100% Don. It will hurt the sport, while catering to the mentally fragile. No athlete here has ever trained or prepared to their absolute maximum capacity, yet complain that their lack of success is due to opponents on drugs. Champions don't give a sh*t what their adversary is doing. Achieving ones best naturally will never be attained by 99.9% of men/woman out there.. Maybe focus on that.
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Post by Tim Elliott on Mar 5, 2014 8:56:14 GMT -5
They're illegal! I think thats kind of the point too. Steroids make for better athletes but an unfair playing field. How can you condone something that breaks the law?
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Post by Simon Berriochoa on Mar 5, 2014 10:16:41 GMT -5
I for one as an athlete do not care what anyone takes. However as a Member of the USAF Board I am responsible to the athletes and for years now the athletes have been asking for drug testing.
There certainly are a pile of substances that are illegal to use or sell without a prescription, however there is a 3x pile of substances that are as effective or nearly as effective at providing enhancement that are completely legal to be purchased over the counter.
It is very important that everyone understands that just because you can buy a substance legally does not mean you will not fail a drug screen for using it. All of these legal substances are made up of the same basic compounds as the banned substances and they will appear exactly the same in your urine sample.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 13:38:51 GMT -5
Simon: Will these testing procedures and listing of banned substances be in place by Unified's in June? Also what classes will be subject to testing and who in those classes will be tested? Thank you!
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Post by Simon Berriochoa on Mar 6, 2014 11:52:53 GMT -5
Scott Still a work in progress at this point. The general policy applies to all athletes so no one should assume that it only applies to the open classes.
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Post by Neal Kirby on Mar 6, 2014 15:00:27 GMT -5
This will certainly be expensive. I work closely with this testing and it isn't something cheap if you actually want to use an effective testing method. Standard test is only effective to a degree as Simon said. But it is a great start if that's what the organization wants to do.
I myself could care less. Getting into the sport and being new into it, I knew it was part off something not talked about. But eventually I'd compete against someone on and it doesn't bother me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by Ray Berry on Mar 6, 2014 22:36:52 GMT -5
I lift with 100 percent raw powerlifting organization 1 in every 10 people is tested the last meet I lifted in two people failed the test but that's what gives 100 percent raw credibility raw means raw
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