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Post by simon on Aug 22, 2006 19:40:17 GMT -5
Leonard/Engin I agree with you, what happened to innocent until proven guilty?
For some reason people don’t seem to realize the ramifications that comes with wrongfully or inappropriately ruining someone publicly. Look how much has been already heaped upon Artem, being stripped and forever labeled as a cheat plus the continued unsubstantiated pursuit of him, now I am not saying I believe the B's will exonerate all 6, but there is enough risk of being wrong to wait.
I am not sure I am reading your statement properly Willie are you really indicating that regardless of not yet having the conclusions and or the rendering of the testing that the WAF will not allow these athletes to compete at the worlds due to the EAF’s inability to get the tests back in time? That makes no sense to me at all, if it is so; well chalk up one more reason we should not being using WADA. There is no provision in the doping code for suspension/banning due to suspicion of failing a drug test, you either fail and you are punished or you have yet to fail the complete drug testing process, again innocent until proven guilty……….
I reiterate and I sight the above as evidence, we are trying to operate a significant testing protocol that we do not have the capacity or capabilities to properly administrate….Trial and error might be OK for some things but we are talking about adversely effecting the lives of athletes dedicating themselves to the sport, we owe it to them to have our act together and follow the protocol that we are continually waiving the flag over all the time.
If we continue like this it is only a matter of time before the wrong person gets sanctioned and an attorney somewhere is going to test the mettle of our process.
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Post by simon on Aug 22, 2006 19:44:19 GMT -5
Article 19 Subsection 2 d) If an athlete is found to test positive, WAF has the right to scrutinize their host country’s armwrestling program and officials for infractions against drug abuse. Countries found guilty of doping will be given a warning for a first offence; second offence will be disqualification from the event in question and third offence will be three year suspension from any WAF sanctioned event. According to Information provided today on Russian Armwrestling Association website all the 6 athletes are from Russian team. Names are promised within 24 hours. So am I to believe the WAF is going to sanction the Russian Federation? "countries found guilty of doping" does that mean they have to show that the country administered the doping or simply that the country had failed athletes representing it?
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Post by leonard on Aug 23, 2006 2:29:47 GMT -5
I want to see where in the Doping controls that we passed or our Constitution how we have the authority to ban someone from the Worlds until the proper procedure has been followed and the athlete has been officially ruled positive.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 23, 2006 3:39:15 GMT -5
i personally believe that there has to be certain amount of positive tested pullers to suspend a country from the events.all these are very sad things and i hope that these "6" athletes are not related with another situation.
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Post by guy on Aug 23, 2006 9:19:02 GMT -5
i personally believe that there has to be certain amount of positive tested pullers to suspend a country from the events.all these are very sad things and i hope that these "6" athletes are not related with another situation.and According to Information provided today on Russian Armwrestling Association website all the 6 athletes are from Russian team. Names are promised within 24 hours. Do you think the coaches know what is going on with the athletes before tournaments as far as doping? Do you think they have anything to do with helping them in this field?
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 23, 2006 9:32:02 GMT -5
Guy,
i think i agree with your thoughts but i have made this mistake by talking about what i know but can not prove.so people thinks these are slanderings and i have decided to not to declare these knowledge and thoughts on the board.
but i will admit that it is a great suprise for me to hear that there are 6 positive samples and all are from Russia.i am sad to see unfair competetions because the results might have been different if these positive tested athletes have not participated.
people should quit training for cheating and start focusing on how to win naturally.
ps. Guy,this part was not quoted from my post, "and According to Information provided today on Russian Armwrestling Association website all the 6 athletes are from Russian team. Names are promised within 24 hours."
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Post by James Battles on Aug 23, 2006 11:31:41 GMT -5
I cannot say about here and now but I can talk about the past. For instance when we went to Russia to wrestle most of the atheletes from the surrounding areas in Russia had coaches/trainers. These people were there to bring each athelete to the top if possible. As far as what was conveyed to me at least by those coaches it was no secret. As far as I could tell the knowledge of the use of a thing was all they needed. "maybe they considered things to be over the counter because of no government regulation".I seriously had never heard the word stanzalol until that time. In so many words and sign language and even to the point of being surprised by jovial opinions I was educated. The statements whether true or not I do not know. One individual indicated to me that the atheletes over there were not as dedicated to the gym and needed help. I am sure that is the nicest way it can be put. As it has been mentioned alot of the atheletes depend on funding and I got the impression the decisions to decline which might result in failure were unacceptable. I dont see how the upper managment could have not been aware . The sadest thing I observed was alot of blank stares during the awards as they collected the medals and the awards. Each athelete accepted a cup and a medal and promptly dropped the medal in the cup and handed it off to someone else after the photo sessions. I can only speculate but it was obvious the atheletes were making their own statement in silence not showing any ownership whatsoever . Of course everyone knows the drill ... only half of what you see and none of what you hear. So in conclusion none of this really means anything based on what I heard. not believable. As for what I saw maybe the atheletes were just tired and the coaches collecting all the hardware were just good servants. Do you buy that? I have been to the great country of Russia twice and enjoyed both encounters. Regardless of anything that might or might not have been going on just to go and wrestle the wrestlers whether they did or did not do anything illegal mattered little. The atheletes are some of the greatest I have ever met and whatever was going on I do not believe it was their choice as competitors at least in most cases. I am suprised at the possibilities of 6 positive tests in the here and now based on the next several years I have seen these same atheletes . I had gotten the impression they were moving in other directions. The biggest war seemed to be raging between the Russian atheletes and the Ukrainian atheletes and opinions thereof whether one side or the other was using performance enhancers. I think it was reference to Ivankins and Alexeys good genetics. On the other hand Sergey Ivanov looks like green grass and sunshine hehe with a very mean hook. Ivankin and Alexey were as freindly as anyone I met. Sergey wasnt extremley talkative but he seemed ok to me with a passing smile. I would like to say that none of the Ukranians were at the tournament I referred to above. To answer a question at least back then I definatley believe the coaches/trainers were like small government in search of cash cow with the ability to get grants based on success. The motive is pretty solid. This is all just my opinion I could be wrong.
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Post by guy on Aug 23, 2006 13:47:53 GMT -5
I think its quite possible the coaches can be part of it, and also just as fast point the blame totally at the athlete . This is the nature Produce or be replaced..
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Post by simon on Aug 23, 2006 15:30:33 GMT -5
Leonard I don't think there is any such provision.
Sadly the only suspension for doping to date came from Russia now we appear to have six more from Russia.... As I asked on the other thread how many Russians got tested, the % tested to failed would be interesting.
Again this is tragic and with all due respect to the Russian Federation, if these tests prove to be failures how can the Russian program not be scrutinized?
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 23, 2006 16:35:47 GMT -5
From WAF rules;
d) If an athlete is found to test positive, WAF has the right to scrutinize their host country’s armwrestling program and officials for infractions against drug abuse. Countries found guilty of doping will be given a warning for a first offence; second offence will be disqualification from the event in question and third offence will be three year suspension from any WAF sanctioned event.
does this part has any relation with Russians being suspended from EAF or coming up WAF event because of these results are the 2. positive result from team Russia?
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Post by Willy Deneumostier on Aug 23, 2006 17:00:12 GMT -5
ladies and Gentlemen, EAF and WAF try to clean our sport with the possibilities we have. we try to be fair with everyone. I don't know where he found this information -apparently in a russian web side ? Which one ? I am the only one to know the name and nationalities of the competitors tested positive during the EAF. I have informe the Russian president and EAF president Yesterday morning . Who has declared 6 positives test ? I just precise that we have 6 A samples positives at the EAF championship when I see the Robert message in the board. We follow the procedure for the B sample in agrement with the EAF federation and national federations involved in this. We try to accelerate this procedure but in our rules they have 3 weeks to reply at our request. The analyse of the B sample if requested will take one week at least. After this, we will see and let the competitors to present their files in appeal front the doping EAF commission if they wish to do it . It is very simple. Now Wait and see and let us do our work in the best way. PS somes substances can not be produce by the body. How can they go into it ? That's the question. best regards to all. I stay on your serve if needed Willy
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 23, 2006 17:46:19 GMT -5
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Post by Rick Pinkney on Aug 23, 2006 19:17:40 GMT -5
d) If an athlete is found to test positive, WAF has the right to scrutinize their host country’s armwrestling program and officials for infractions against drug abuse. Countries found guilty of doping will be given a warning for a first offence; second offence will be disqualification from the event in question and third offence will be three year suspension from any WAF sanctioned event.
You need to read this paragraph carefully. It states that if an athlete is found guilty WAF has the right to scutinize that country's program. If the program is found to be at fault for the doping infractions (ie: coaches promoting the use of banned substances) then we can sanction that country. It has nothing to do with the number of athletes. Having said that, if all 6 "B" samples come back positive then we will have to investigate the Russian program. If we can determine that the use of banned substances is being encouraged by the Russian body then we will move ahead with this. I know that everyone will be asking how we are going to investigate this. Well, to be honest with our limited resources it won't be easy.
Simon, you are right about Balco. WADA was a little slow on this one, however they now know how these drugs are being manipulted and can test for it. If we used a policy like the NFL we wouldn't even be testing for amphetamines until next year, seeing how the NFL is only starting this year. The penalty for testing positive this year - a warning. Boy, now thats getting tough on doping.
WADA has 11 scientists on their committee to determine what should be banned. The NFL on the other hand determines its list in conjunction with the Players Association, which explains why it took so long to get something as blatant as amphetamines on the list. Although WADA is not perfect it is the best thing out there for us to use.
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Post by Rick Pinkney on Aug 23, 2006 19:19:33 GMT -5
Engin,
How did these people place in the competition?
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Post by simon on Aug 23, 2006 20:20:49 GMT -5
Simon, you are right about Balco. WADA was a little slow on this one, however they now know how these drugs are being manipulted and can test for it. If we used a policy like the NFL we wouldn't even be testing for amphetamines until next year, seeing how the NFL is only starting this year. The penalty for testing positive this year - a warning. Boy, now thats getting tough on doping. WADA has 11 scientists on their committee to determine what should be banned. The NFL on the other hand determines its list in conjunction with the Players Association, which explains why it took so long to get something as blatant as amphetamines on the list. Although WADA is not perfect it is the best thing out there for us to use. I am not saying we should emulate the NFL and I have no problem with our list being the WADA list, (minus the BS cold medicine or the other items that have no application to our sport) what I am saying is by taking an intelligently augmented WADA list and making it our list this opens us up to using more labs (because we don't have to use WADA labs) and the cost will be much lower per test so we can administer more tests, and possibly even do some random sampling programs. If WADA comes up with a newly banned substance in 2007 we can add it to our list as well there is nothing to prevent us from doing so, do you really think would could not find another series of labs that could test for the new substance? The non WADA lab at UCLA is 10 times larger than the WADA lab there, this is according to the WADA lab manager I spoke to there when I was trying to find out if they would test individuals one on one, which they won't WADA won't let them, but the Non WADA UCLA lab will. Outside of the excessive WADA banned list (once it goes off into vague descriptions and cold medicine) the real problem is the limitations and the strict protocols that come with WADA. If we made our own protocol we could do more tests and we could properly administrate, grow and advance the process, we could do for armwrestling what we are supposed to be doing, improving the sport for the athletes by removing doping not trying to trial and error manage a process that is over our head while we compromise the rights of the athletes.
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