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Post by Pete & Tim on May 29, 2008 22:09:25 GMT -5
I remember that match. That was when John didn't let go of Bob's hand and Bob told him to stop and to let go and then they starting shoving and getting a little heated.
That was funny.
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Post by Mike West on May 30, 2008 6:06:22 GMT -5
AAA has done it for decades without grabbing hands, works pretty good there.
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Post by Mike West on Jun 3, 2008 5:53:43 GMT -5
No response  |
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Post by Pete & Tim on Jun 3, 2008 7:07:31 GMT -5
You said those three little letters. ;D
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Post by Leonard Harkless on Jun 3, 2008 10:26:21 GMT -5
No response What do you want me to say Mike? You are wrong.....how about that? Dwaye Hanel's didn't turn out so well with the way AAA is doing it. If you think that your injury came from our referee grabbing your hands then that is your right. I disagree. Yes he grabbed the hands but I cannot see in the video any suggestion that he put down pressure on the hands. If you were so hurt by that then you should not have pulled again right handed with John Woolsey. I have stated our reasons for the grabbing of the hands and WAF is and will continue to do it also. Again I am sorry for your injury and hope you recover quickly. |
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Post by Mike West on Jun 4, 2008 18:49:17 GMT -5
No response What do you want me to say Mike? You are wrong.....how about that? Dwaye Hanel's didn't turn out so well with the way AAA is doing it. If you think that your injury came from our referee grabbing your hands then that is your right. I disagree. Yes he grabbed the hands but I cannot see in the video any suggestion that he put down pressure on the hands. If you were so hurt by that then you should not have pulled again right handed with John Woolsey. I have stated our reasons for the grabbing of the hands and WAF is and will continue to do it also. Again I am sorry for your injury and hope you recover quickly. Leonard, you keep stating that the grabbing of the hands is a safety measure, I tried giving you an example (AAA's way) of a system that has worked well for decades to show you there are other ways beside yours. I guessed you didn't respond because you weren't interested in maybe changing things to make it safer. How could you not see Jeff's hand pull our hands down into the pin pad? And yes, I went back up to pull John, it was sore and swelling, but I didn't know the extent of my injury, and it's not the first time I've ever pulled with a sore arm. Do you really think that grabbing their hands would have prevented Dwayne's injury? |
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Post by Leonard Harkless on Jun 5, 2008 1:01:58 GMT -5
What do you want me to say Mike? You are wrong.....how about that? Dwayne Hanel's didn't turn out so well with the way AAA is doing it. If you think that your injury came from our referee grabbing your hands then that is your right. I disagree. Yes he grabbed the hands but I cannot see in the video any suggestion that he put down pressure on the hands. If you were so hurt by that then you should not have pulled again right handed with John Woolsey. I have stated our reasons for the grabbing of the hands and WAF is and will continue to do it also. Again I am sorry for your injury and hope you recover quickly. Leonard, you keep stating that the grabbing of the hands is a safety measure, I tried giving you an example (AAA's way) of a system that has worked well for decades to show you there are other ways beside yours. I guessed you didn't respond because you weren't interested in maybe changing things to make it safer. How could you not see Jeff's hand pull our hands down into the pin pad? And yes, I went back up to pull John, it was sore and swelling, but I didn't know the extent of my injury, and it's not the first time I've ever pulled with a sore arm. Do you really think that grabbing their hands would have prevented Dwayne's injury? Mike, I didn't answer you because I was out of town at the US Open. What I saw was Jeff grabbing the hands but again I did not see any evidence of him forcing the hands to the pad. Just because they went to the pad does not mean that he forced them down. Your opponents force was taking the hands down and the release of your tendon could just have easily been the reason for the dip. In fact in my opinion that is exactly what happened. Now as for your assertion that because AAA has done it for "decades" different does not make it something that I want to change to. We have been doing this our way for "decades" also and could easily say that they should switch to grabbing the hands. As the WAF Head Referee I believe that grabbing the hands is the safest way for both armwrestlers to know that the match is over. Yes is your question on Dwayne's injury, if I didn't believe that I would not have brought it up. I can understand your desire to blame your injury on something other than an accident but I do not believe that anything happened other than your tendon gave way under the stress of the match. If you really want to debate this further, call me. |
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Post by Mike West on Jun 5, 2008 5:49:04 GMT -5
Leonard, I'm not trying to find a way to blame someone for my injury, I know that I had Eric stopped right above the pad (video shows that) and you and I both know I've been in that spot many times, when he grabbed our hands is when I heard and felt the pop, I'm not blaming Jeff, just explaining what happened so that maybe it won't happen to someone else.
Lots of times when a ref grabs the hands like that there's more force being applied than they realize, plus the hands can get rotated out more than if just your opponent were doing it.
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Post by Mike West on Jun 5, 2008 19:30:25 GMT -5
ITEM 10
The signal given by the Head Referee is “Ready...Go!” in an unspecified cadence. At the end of the match the referee will say “Stop” and indicate the winner by raising his arm towards him/her. All effort must be made by the referee that the competitors are aware the match is stopped.
This does not say to grab the hands
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Post by Leonard Harkless on Jun 5, 2008 20:05:34 GMT -5
ITEM 10 The signal given by the Head Referee is “Ready...Go!” in an unspecified cadence. At the end of the match the referee will say “Stop” and indicate the winner by raising his arm towards him/her. All effort must be made by the referee that the competitors are aware the match is stopped. This does not say to grab the hands No it says that all effort must be made and in my opinion that means grabbing the hands. I don't know what you want Mike. I have been doing it and teaching this for 27 years. I believe that grabbing the hands is still the safest way to stop the match. You are not going to change my mind. |
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Post by Mike West on Jun 5, 2008 21:17:42 GMT -5
Don't change it Leonard, just teach your refs not to do it with such force then.
Apparently you don't realize that by reaching quickly to make the pin call, a ref may pull down harder than he thinks.
What I want is for you to realize that maybe just maybe your rule should be thought over a little more, or train your refs to control their reflexes better.
As Bob has said before, the WAF rule are very open to interpretation, and you've just proved his point.
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Post by Leonard Harkless on Jun 5, 2008 22:28:07 GMT -5
Don't change it Leonard, just teach your refs not to do it with such force then. Apparently you don't realize that by reaching quickly to make the pin call, a ref may pull down harder than he thinks. What I want is for you to realize that maybe just maybe your rule should be thought over a little more, or train your refs to control their reflexes better. As Bob has said before, the WAF rule are very open to interpretation, and you've just proved his point. The rules may be open to interpretation but it is my job as the Head referee to make those interpretations. I still dispute the assertion that your injury came from his grabbing the hands. I know what to look for in a referee grabbing the hands too forcefully, I guess we will just have to disagree. We do not have to agree and you have your opinion and mine just happens not to be the same. |
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Post by Mike West on Jun 5, 2008 23:00:17 GMT -5
ITEM 10
The signal given by the Head Referee is “Ready...Go!” in an unspecified cadence. At the end of the match the referee will say “Stop” and indicate the winner by raising his arm towards him/her. All effort must be made by the referee that the competitors are aware the match is stopped.
You aren't even doing this part of the rule first, your right, we will continue to disagree.
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Post by Leonard Harkless on Jun 5, 2008 23:26:15 GMT -5
ITEM 10 The signal given by the Head Referee is “Ready...Go!” in an unspecified cadence. At the end of the match the referee will say “Stop” and indicate the winner by raising his arm towards him/her. All effort must be made by the referee that the competitors are aware the match is stopped. You aren't even doing this part of the rule first, your right, we will continue to disagree. Explain that comment please? |
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Post by Mike West on Jun 7, 2008 7:41:01 GMT -5
ITEM 10 The signal given by the Head Referee is “Ready...Go!” in an unspecified cadence. At the end of the match the referee will say “Stop” and indicate the winner by raising his arm towards him/her. All effort must be made by the referee that the competitors are aware the match is stopped. You aren't even doing this part of the rule first, your right, we will continue to disagree. Explain that comment please? What I mean is your grabbing the hands as your first resort, not "indicate the winner by raising his arm towards him/her.", then grabbing them if they don't stop. ITEM 14 • REFEREES a) Director of Referees • is responsible for referee assignments at and during WAF competition. • is responsible to supervise the referees during the competition and issue a performance report card at the end of the tournament to each participating referee. • is responsible to remove any referee that is deemed irresponsible or technically unfit to referee a WAF tournament. •is responsible to bring to the attention of the WAF executive, documented proof of a referee who is to be disciplined for unwarranted behavior or blatant misconduct. •is responsible to make certain referees conform to WAF referee dress code at WAF tournaments. This doesn't say anything about you getting to interpret the rules? The rules are spelled out in black and white. Where does the duties of the Head Referee say he can interpret rules? |
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