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Post by John Wilson on Mar 3, 2011 18:28:11 GMT -5
Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach. Luther was on a tirade against all doctrine that ran counter to scripture. In the paragraph above, he castigated the Pope for the very same reasons he is railing against the Jews in his community. They were both guilty of taking scripture out of context to push an agenda, and guilty also for using scripture to control others. Luther was human, just like Bill said. Like all humans, he let his rhetoric paint him into a corner. Luther should have felt the sting of hypocrisy, because he spent a lot of time pointing out what the Catholic Church and the Jews were doing to subvert scripture, and in the process he fell into the trap of sinning by means of hatred. It is a sin all of us are guilty of. We try to make a valid point and totally miss the mote in our own eye. I'm not defending Luther. He was not a saint. He was a great intellect, but intellect and character are not the same, and holiness is not, and never has been, implied with intellect. The larger point is this: Luther is not "Christians" just like Israel is not "Jews" and Bin Ladin is not "Muslims". There is no such thing as collective salvation. Likewise, there is no such thing as collective sin. Faith, Sin, Love, Hatred... are all individual choices that we make every day, one action at a time. |
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Post by enginterzi on Mar 3, 2011 18:33:21 GMT -5
The larger point is this: Luther is not "Christians" just like Israel is not "Jews" and Bin Ladin is not "Muslims". John, THE BEST WORDS I HAVE EVER READ SINCE I STARTED TO DISCUSS ABOUT THESE MATTERS HERE ON THIS OFF TOPIC FORUM !!! |
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Post by Bill Maenza on Mar 3, 2011 20:06:12 GMT -5
Amen! The larger point is this: Luther is not "Christians" just like Israel is not "Jews" and Bin Ladin is not "Muslims". John, THE BEST WORDS I HAVE EVER READ SINCE I STARTED TO DISCUSS ABOUT THESE MATTERS HERE ON THIS OFF TOPIC FORUM !!! |
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Mar 3, 2011 23:59:14 GMT -5
Was going to start another thread, but I figured this kind of pertains to this thread. A view point that I've never thought about regarding Islam and our "system". It makes sense, and makes me, and should make us feel like total sheep: WHY THE BANKSTERS HATE ISLAMwww.prisonplanet.com/why-the-banksters-hate-islam.htmlEngin, you should LOVE this one!!! |
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Post by Robert Bishop on Mar 4, 2011 17:10:00 GMT -5
for one thing
Luther spent a lot of time on the defence because he was attacked non stop by the catholic church for his refusing to accept the church teachings on some things
but
the fact he translated the bible into German was a great thing even with all this other stuff
it sounds to me he was trying hard to keep false teachings and lies out of Germany even at extreme measures
I see his point on that although i wouldnt hate or kill to do that ------------i still dont see that he hated the Jews but rather how they were a thorn in the side of christianity ----------trying to hinder it
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Post by enginterzi on Mar 4, 2011 17:21:45 GMT -5
i agree with Robert,he was in love with them and these are the words of love in the best way ever.i heard holywood is gonna make a love story movie about it.
"miserable and accursed people"
"set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them"
"I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."
Mark 8-18 Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear?
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Post by John Wilson on Mar 4, 2011 17:56:44 GMT -5
Engin, I believe you are reading hyperbole and taking it literally. Neither Luther's actions, and no historian I am aware of, would indicate that he acted out toward the Jews.
Are his words unfortunate? Of course. Did he have hate in his heart toward Jews? Maybe, even probably, since he wrote this stuff down. But Luther was a bookworm schoolteacher, hardly a community leader and certainly not a leader of the church. But he, being a school teacher- should have been very careful with what he said or wrote down since his role was one of influence.
In all fairness to the truth though, if we heard words like these today we would proclaim his school to be a Madrassa preaching fundamentalist hatred toward Jews. I think it is more likely poor rhetoric that went too far- and the total lack of historical reference to Luther being a hate-monger is why I say that.
Luther never even set out to directly challenge the Church. He posted his 95 theses on the door, as was customary. The church door was the bulletin board of its day. Supposedly, it was one of his students who pulled down his pages and had them printed and distributed that caused the uproar, and ultimately Luther's excommunication from the Church.
Luther is proof that humans are flawed beings. All of us. I'm not here to defend Luther- that's not my place and I have no interest in Luther other than he had some good points about eisegesis of scripture and that doctrine can never over-ride scripture. Anything else in his life may be indefensible, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a smart guy who tried to do some good things. Likewise, his good ideas cannot trump his hate and that is for God to decide.
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Post by enginterzi on Mar 4, 2011 18:13:31 GMT -5
John,
with an anger people may say somethings which they do not mean.but when you write a book then you have chance to re-read what you write.i have no doubt in my mind that he hated Jews people enough to write such ill words about them.
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Post by John Wilson on Mar 4, 2011 18:21:24 GMT -5
I can't argue with you there.
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Post by Trenton Meyer on Mar 18, 2011 19:03:08 GMT -5
After France steps in the Lybia mess, we will have to name a new food after them!  |
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Post by Trenton Meyer on Mar 31, 2011 10:13:47 GMT -5
Engin,
Why is Turkey, and lebenon getting into bed with Iran?
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Post by enginterzi on Mar 31, 2011 12:00:22 GMT -5
Trenton, i try to stay away from these discussions but you asked me a question.so i will answer with my thoughts. Iran has been our neighbour for centuries and we did not have any war against them for centuries,even when the west and Russia attacked on our empire from everywhere Iran did not see this as an opportunity to use against us.all those lands that you watch on the news now had been our land for centuries till 100 years ago and we have historical ties with these nations,not to mention the religious ties.i think the question should be why US gets involved with a region which is thousands of miles away by going into the bed with Israel (even when Israel intentionally hits USS liberty and kill US soldiers www.gtr5.com/ ),instead of why Turkey and Lebanon getting into bed with Iran.Israel has been stealing others' land and has hundreds of nuclears.why is that ok? to me no nation should have such weapons and it is hypocricy to complain about others having what you have.can you say the same thing to Russians or to Chinese? no! why because they are powerful as well. Turkey tells Iran to not to have nuclear weapons and we would not want Iran to have such weapons but we feel the exact same about Israel.just because Israel controls US it does not mean that everything Israel does is fine over here.we would like to have peace in our region and we are ready to co-operate for this,but not for new occupations because of none sense reasons; once Saddam had the WMD,but he received them by USA and used them against Iran and Kurds. so just say its a war for benefits but please never claim that you have no guilt in it. |
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Post by enginterzi on Mar 31, 2011 12:27:43 GMT -5
Turkey is a positive role model for those nations that are oppressed by dictators, as being a Muslim nation that is under democracy.no doubt a better future will be over here but west needs to stay away from any kind of occupation.no need to create more and more hate between the civilizations, like happenned during Iraq and Palestine occupations.
btw,did you know that Turkey just stopped a cargo plane that was going to Iran and caught some prohibited stuff in it? so dont worry,we know what we are doing.dont take everyone as threat just because they do the things in their own ways.
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Post by enginterzi on Mar 31, 2011 15:54:12 GMT -5
btw,did you know that Turkey just stopped a cargo plane that was going to Iran and caught some prohibited stuff in it? first i watched on the news that prohibited material was found but i guess what they found was not prohibited; www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42183128/ns/business-us_business/ but anyways we do our inspections according to international law.so just because we try for peace this does not mean that we go into bed with Iran. majority of the Turkish people do not trust Iran.they are Shia Muslims while we are Sunni Muslims,these two are very different version of beliefs. the problem that Israel and USA to have with Syria and Iran is that Iran is a Shia nation while Syria is Sunnia but its president is Shia who dictates Syrians and these two have relations with Heezbulla who are also Shia.the other reason is that majority of Iraqy population is Shia as well (about 60%).so Iran has a great influence on Iraq. so in fact Turkey and Iran are in a secret competetion about the leadership of the region.but this competetion is not of a strength competetion but a competetion of gaining the hearts. west to attack and occupy Iran will not help Turkey's leadership position.so the problem should be solved without force.Turkey does not want Iran to become nuclear power but we also do not want another mess in another neighbour country.you go away when you are done with your mess but we will keep living by our neighbours as we have been for centuries. experience is not something to be read on books,we know the region,we ruled this region for centuries.seek for our advice if the intention is to create peace. |
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Post by Robert Bishop on Apr 1, 2011 14:31:29 GMT -5
Engin, Why is Turkey, and lebenon getting into bed with Iran? i understand Engins answers and i have nothing against Turkey but it is interesting how things are starting to line up according to bible prophecy and Turkey had to be friends whith Iran, Russia, Syria, and others to fullfill scripture EZE 38  JMO |
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