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Post by Josh Shotgun Stark on Dec 30, 2004 15:36:14 GMT -5
I voted to ban because it will be a reality check for many. The playing grounds may soon be evened also by doing this. If ever we can agree to do this, than maybe the next step could get us in the Olympics.  Just my 2 cents, now wheres my change? ;D |
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Post by Florin Butusina on Dec 30, 2004 15:39:17 GMT -5
i think that "guilty ones must be banned". because we all train hard and its not fair to lose because someone makes intentional mistakes
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Post by leonard on Dec 30, 2004 16:14:42 GMT -5
I personally think that intentional cheating is happening in every sport. Should we ignore it? NO. Will we completely get rid of it? NO. The NFL has a rule book quite thick and the cheats still get away with cheating. We can profile cheaters and pay stricter attention to them. Tighten the rules where we can but the human spirit drives them to find loop holds. Should more armwrestlers look to gain advantage thru cheating NO. Stay honest and it will make the referee’s job easier in only dealing with one cheat at a time. The hardest set up is when both competitors are looking for an advantage in the set up. Isn’t that cheating? You should not stop demanding a better job from your referee’s, all of us. Also the protest procedure used in WAF should be used more in USA events.
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Post by Bill Cox on Dec 30, 2004 16:29:48 GMT -5
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Dec 30, 2004 17:35:35 GMT -5
First let me say that Leonard and his "crew " ARE the best. And their rules are very fair. But they are only human. SOMETIMES unitentional fouls occur. But its the same people over and over again that pull the same crap all the time. It happens in ALL classes. The problem is, we like to call it either " getting an advantage " or, it was a " fast start "...Mostly its because they know they will LOSE, for whatever reason, mainly because they are WEAK!!!!!!.
I do like the banning idea, but thats would be VERY hard to enforce. BUt like Josh said, the playing field can be even with banning. ADD that with the Drug Testing in Japan next year and things will be even more fair!..... BYE BYE ALL CHEATS!!!!!!
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Post by John Stanton on Dec 30, 2004 19:51:53 GMT -5
I haven't been pulling that long or for that matter against the top competitors. Any sport you get envolved with have athletes looking for an advantage to win. Referees are there to enforce the rules. It's not cheating until you are caught and penalized for it.
Leonard I understand what you mean by "watching" the known cheaters, but if you're watching them closer who's to say their opponent won't take advantage of not being watched. I am a referee of another sport and I know the pressure of trying to call the right thing and how it feels to make a bad call.
just my opinion...for what it's worth
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Post by Brian Bylbie on Dec 30, 2004 21:09:43 GMT -5
Not everyone who is quick is cheating! If you get flashed live with it. No quick puller that I know of will intentionally attempt to false start to get away with it! So your stronger than me. Speed Kills. If you can't catch me than you will never beat me! If one cheats intentionally than thats there prerogative. What did we learn as kids? Cheaters never prosper..... Refs do all they can to make a match fair. Respect their job! I’m sure they didn't intentionally do you wrong they just missed the foul! Leonard is the fairest and consistent ref ever. I have thought in the past he has given me bad calls but one has to look at the film to see that they were wrong! Of course all the times that I yelled at him I was wrong and he got the call right...  |
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Post by Jonas Sundling on Dec 31, 2004 7:25:44 GMT -5
This is a difficult isue to discuss for me since i dont pull alot in the US and dont know what kind of cheating is going on over there.
Over here in Sweden we dont have alot of fights during the setup since we are all trying to get the public to come to the tournaments. What could be more borring for a non puller to watch a 5min set up and u get a foul and have to watch a 5 min setup again.. But then again we are a small country and every puller know eachother.
But then we do have some cheating like lifting the elbow intentional when about to lose, or letting go of the pin in the same situation.. Starting on ..y or looking at the ref. and start just when he is opening his mouth to say go. All this is cheating if u get cought. I do it to so im not really agains it but then again i know its cheating if i get cought and wouldent complain if i get the call against me for doing it.
But this is as someone said before me comon in every sport i dont think there is a way to get rid of it completly, Refs like Leonard makes these small oportunites to cheat even smaller and i think thats the only way to do it, by holding more ref. educations and to profile known cheaters that do it every chanse they get.. When ppl sometimes get a bad start and take a foul instead of losing and get back in to it and win i look at it as the work of a skilled puller. But we might be talking about different levels of cheating here.
I like Engins idea about the camera system and a fee if u complain and u are wrong. If the Ref. intentionly makes bad calls and u can see a pattern he should be banned imo.
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Post by Vic Sargent on Dec 31, 2004 9:37:48 GMT -5
Well I'm not sure how this will go over but here it is...
I'm both a puller and ref and I think I do a decent job reffing.. I know its' always been a sore subject when it come to "intentional fouls" Some say you can't prove a certain move is intentional or just the reaction to an opponents move.. But that is full of crap..As a ref you can deffinately tell when someone is trying to push their opponents elbow off the pad, or trying to bail out of a certain position on the table, or even trying to jump the start.. In all situations I think the ref has an obligation to warn the guilty party of what they see and foul them if they refuse to comply..
Even at the start as a ref bringing hands around your can feel who's trying to jump the gun, right then and there they should get a warning and if they continue to try and jump the start then they get a foul..
If on the restart after the foul they do it again sit them down with 2 looses THEY'RE DONE FOR THE DAY... Want to talk about guys waiting to here the word go after getting booted from a tournament..
Can do the same thing to any competitor that refuses to heed a ref's warning..
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Post by Igor Mazurenko on Dec 31, 2004 9:46:58 GMT -5
Hello,
In one of previous posts Dragos Corcevenau - referee from Romania wrote that I want to take off with camera system in next tournaments that I organize. This is true.
Such system is already designed and will be tested at Armwrestling League in Poland.
The way it works...There is a laser accompanied to the table, laser pointed at centre of the table. There is only one referee - main referee of the table. Instead of classic side referee by the table there are two cameras. Position and place of putting the cameras is a technical detail that I don't wont to tell now.
Important is that this two cameras will be operated by side referee. Cameras are connected to one monitor that shows picture of fight from both cameras at the same time. Grip and competitors elbows are visible on screen.
After READY!GO! whole fight is recorded on computer's harddrive. So when it is time to give verdict or faul occured side referee (operating the cameras) rewinds the recording and watch it once again to be sure. Everybody can watch the fight in slow motion on big screens.
The recording is a warranty of correct verdict. Head referee and side referee are in constant radio contact. It is necessary to have such connection because of the distance the refs are towards eachother.
This system will be tested and upgraded at professional fights and every PAL tournaments.
But I need to say that computer and cameras are not enough. Specialist equipment is necessary. PAL is organizing tournaments on one table at a time. In my opinion the chance to use such system is bigger at such tournaments - with one table. At least for the time being.
Also it could be argued that the tournaments will take more time. Head ref gives verdict after the recording is analized. Maximum time to do so will be 1,5-2 minutes.
I am sure that competitors will feel the difference in level of refereeing.
Personally I have been on many tournaments of other sport disciplines. For me the standard of refereeing is classic wrestling. The final verdict depends on head referee who reruns and watches the whole fight recorded on tape.
This is - I think - the only way to have correct verdicts.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Dec 31, 2004 11:04:12 GMT -5
Quick on " GO " is different then going on or before "ready "or like some people like to say, going on the "R" of ready. Like "FAST " starters like to do...That is NOT being " QUICK ", thats being a cheat! SO if you are so FAST, go on "go " and see how much speed kills. I don't get why some people can't, probably don't want to, get that. The rule is READY...GO...YOU GO on GO....So try it some time....AND YEAH...YOU ARE THEN.....WEAK!!!!!!!!!! If pullers want to win by CHEATING and get a title that way, more power to them....Rather be 2nd...LOL...At least I pulled fair...Don't care how many TITLES  I have! Brian: one more thing, since I BELIEVE you are talking to me: this is an on going thing ( trying to catch a cheat ), mainly goofing, with Leonard. It just didn't happened in August, BUT everytime, whether its Unified, AAA, or a non sanctioned meets....Most who have see most of our matches will tell you that  BTW Brian: I happened to like Travis very much, so much we invited each other to our weddings, talk to him all the time by phone, travel and room with him ( Reno, Little Rock, Ottawa etc ) most of the time, and stay with him at meets, SO THIS IS NOT PERSONAL... AND I do find his "antics " VERY entertaining..EVEN WHEN THEY ARE DIRECTED AST ME! We " MESS " with each other all the time! ANd NO Leonard did NOT get it wrong INTENTIONALLY, Travis is just so damn good at it |
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Dec 31, 2004 13:04:01 GMT -5
I don't think that the refs that have been mentioned in this topic have intentionally given wrong decisions at all. Although there are OTHERS out there that have. |
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Post by Alper Cosar on Dec 31, 2004 13:40:17 GMT -5
Hi Igor,
I liked your ideas about the camera system. It is worth trying. I see you dedicate yourself a lot about taking the armwrestling to the next level!
Can you tell us about your future plans and where you see armwrestling going?
This Pal (league) of yours looks like we are heading towards to the private tournaments in the future. So looks like the world champhionships wont be that important for top armwrestlers since the arena on such tournaments is not the top level of the competition.
Looking forward to hear from you and I support you and congratulate you on your successses so far.
Alper
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Post by Jay Carlisle on Jan 1, 2005 20:09:41 GMT -5
This is a very good question, that can have only one answer for me.No, I do not feel persons should be banned for past performances.The referees in our sport must come to thier responsibilities only after years in the sport as contestants.The rules must be tighten and there cannot be anything to be considered a "lesser" foul.This is the main obstacle for us to take our sport to the next level, "How do we monitor and judge the "WORLD'S FASTEST SPORT". If someone pushes the rules to the limit it is not cheating, it is using the rules to your advantage. The officials need an intense level of understanding of the game, this is the only way of ensuring fair starts. The officials in armsports have a difficult job, banning certain contestants is not the answer. The answer I feel is to make the rules as ironclad as possible and to get the officials to apply the them equally at a $5 trophy tournament or at a National level tounament pulling for $100,000 and a brand new Hummer.
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Post by leonard on Jan 1, 2005 20:21:28 GMT -5
Alper,
What has made you say that "So looks like the world champhionships wont be that important for top armwrestlers since the arena on such tournaments is not the top level of the competition." Where did that come from. We just had the second largest worlds at a remote location and yes the PAL had a good event but the two events are apples and oranges. ;D
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I have!
