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Post by Don Underwood on Apr 26, 2009 22:24:17 GMT -5
the match went up as a request of justins.i don't like to see it either but it does happen and some people want to see it for what ever reason . it wont be on my highlight real.
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Post by Jeremy Plaster on Apr 26, 2009 22:48:20 GMT -5
I'm sensitive to elbows, since my 2006 match with Gene Dunn. I was warned, tried to correct, and got out of position and lost. Elbow fouls should be called. I respect your opinion on this but i disagree. I like when refs let us pull. I hate seeing a match have to stop because of an inncidental elbow. Agreed.. If there is no position gained, let us rock and roll
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Post by chrislydman on Apr 27, 2009 8:03:28 GMT -5
I'm just being a whiner!
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Post by John Wilson on Apr 27, 2009 8:22:58 GMT -5
I saw what could have been about ten elbow foul calls, too. BUT- this match is exactly the reason they SHOULD NOT have been called. No position was gained. Scott immediately corrected each time. Ryan was was the aggressor each time Scott's elbow floated and to stop the match would have hurt Ryan who was working a move at the time.
NO HARM NO FOUL. Restarts are the devil of this sport. If no advantage is gained, LET 'EM PULL!
HOLY CRAP THAT WAS A GREAT MATCH!!!
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J.Tanner
Silver Member
DENVER
Posts: 374
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Post by J.Tanner on Apr 27, 2009 8:28:35 GMT -5
here is justins arm break video (this was his 3rd event and he nearly beat ethen its to bad) and one of the best matches ive ever seen ryan constintino vs scott flemming enjoy. go to you tube user name DLG2400 This match is INSANE and deserves to be embedded (no arm break in this one): that was one BAD-A$$ match both those guys are MONSTERS
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Post by Leonard Harkless on Apr 27, 2009 9:34:43 GMT -5
I saw what could have been about ten elbow foul calls, too. BUT- this match is exactly the reason they SHOULD NOT have been called. No position was gained. Scott immediately corrected each time. Ryan was was the aggressor each time Scott's elbow floated and to stop the match would have hurt Ryan who was working a move at the time. NO HARM NO FOUL. Restarts are the devil of this sport. If no advantage is gained, LET 'EM PULL! HOLY CRAP THAT WAS A GREAT MATCH!!! It depends on the exact rules that Don is using. I don't really care if the rules state that no position gained no call but that should be the rules. If they are using the WAF version which is no daylight then that is that. Also the down side referee was on the wrong side of the table to make calls and that should be addressed, who ever he is. For all of you pulling armwrestlers who have lost their wrist, Scott should have driven his elbow to the front of the pocket changing the angle of pressure on his arm. Then he could have expended much less energy. Good match guys. ;D
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Post by John Wilson on Apr 27, 2009 10:20:15 GMT -5
I'm not advocating ignoring the rules at all. You're right - the rules are what they are. What I am advocating is a rule change back to the No Harm No Foul idea.
Rules are funny things. The only way to make rules work is for total consistency. Elbow fouls are the best example of this problem. Why? Because every single table I have ever pulled on had different elbow pads. WAF tables are notorius for elbow pads that feel like cast iron blocks wrapped in non-stick teflon coated vinyl. To avoid elbow fouls at Worlds you have to pull so tentatively and move your elbow on the pad so cautiously that it makes for hesitant pulling, and I say boring armwrestling. No way Scott and Ryan's match could have happened at Worlds. - and it's the WAF's loss. Matches like that are the only shot this sport has as public interest.
I'm all for rules are rules. But the rules can't just be reffed consistently, they must be able to be followed consistently. A good elbow pad should have some cushion but must rebound when the elbow is moved to fill its original dimension. The WAF solution is elbow pads which have zero give and the result of that has been a disastrous increase in elbow fouls.
Granted, all the ref can do is follow the rules as stated. Let's put some effort into standardizing elbow pads so that the rules actually help the sport as intended. Restarts aren't the answer.
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Post by Coley Jones on Apr 27, 2009 10:23:00 GMT -5
That was a great pull, guys! Epic even.
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Post by Leonard Harkless on Apr 27, 2009 10:58:35 GMT -5
I'm not advocating ignoring the rules at all. You're right - the rules are what they are. What I am advocating is a rule change back to the No Harm No Foul idea. Rules are funny things. The only way to make rules work is for total consistency. Elbow fouls are the best example of this problem. Why? Because every single table I have ever pulled on had different elbow pads. WAF tables are notorius for elbow pads that feel like cast iron blocks wrapped in non-stick teflon coated vinyl. To avoid elbow fouls at Worlds you have to pull so tentatively and move your elbow on the pad so cautiously that it makes for hesitant pulling, and I say boring armwrestling. No way Scott and Ryan's match could have happened at Worlds. - and it's the WAF's loss. Matches like that are the only shot this sport has as public interest. I'm all for rules are rules. But the rules can't just be reffed consistently, they must be able to be followed consistently. A good elbow pad should have some cushion but must rebound when the elbow is moved to fill its original dimension. The WAF solution is elbow pads which have zero give and the result of that has been a disastrous increase in elbow fouls. Granted, all the ref can do is follow the rules as stated. Let's put some effort into standardizing elbow pads so that the rules actually help the sport as intended. Restarts aren't the answer. If I was the armwrestling god, I would mandate a return to the SOFT sided SHALLOW donut cups. Then there would be some allowances on the lifting of elbows within the "cup" and stay within the rules but still take away judgement calls on position gained.
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Post by Don Underwood on Apr 27, 2009 13:44:45 GMT -5
It's a single ref set the reason a side side ref came in at the end was to make sure a great match wasent wasted. All of my refs know what to look for and i don't think it matterers if the down side is on the left or right they know what an elbow foul is. I went to a single ref set for the fact that half the time the down side is in the way of the crowd and i want the pullers to determin the outcome . If there is an obvious foul a watcher will step in this is not waf rules it is toproll rules we will have a true winner the crowd demands it.
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Post by ryanconstantino on Apr 27, 2009 15:29:00 GMT -5
Haha, that was fun! I am honored to have participated in a matchup like that, glad everyone is enjoying it. Big props to World Champion Scott Fleming. I would recommend a fast outside toproll on this guy unless you want to potentially get yourself in a death match.
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Post by John Wilson on Apr 27, 2009 15:57:17 GMT -5
I'm with you, Don. Outstanding job on your events by all accounts. I hope to make it to one soon.
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Post by Leonard Harkless on Apr 27, 2009 16:48:42 GMT -5
It's a single ref set the reason a side side ref came in at the end was to make sure a great match wasent wasted. All of my refs know what to look for and i don't think it matterers if the down side is on the left or right they know what an elbow foul is. I went to a single ref set for the fact that half the time the down side is in the way of the crowd and i want the pullers to determin the outcome . If there is an obvious foul a watcher will step in this is not waf rules it is toproll rules we will have a true winner the crowd demands it. Bull hucky.......if the referee is on the wrong side he or she is not in a position to make the call. You can't call what you don't see. Oh and exactly what are these top roll rules and where do we get a copy?
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Post by Don Underwood on Apr 27, 2009 17:28:47 GMT -5
rules will be posted on toprollelite soon as we are still in the building stage . for the most part the rules will be the same as your with a few exceptions. 1 .no down ref 2. only elbow fouls will be called when there is an obvious gain . Everthing elese is pretty much the same.I know there will be some that don't like my rules but they are mine and they will be used . I am putting on a show in order for this sport to go to another level you need spectators and a want for the sport that is my goal.
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Post by Rob Baker on Apr 28, 2009 11:01:46 GMT -5
Imo all elbow fouls should be called, just because you the spectator or the ref does not see a obvious gain does not mean that the person that fouled could have held on with his or her elbow down in the proper position they might have acctually gone down a little. I guess what im saying is just because the two arms do not move position (does not mean that there was not a gain).
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