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Post by Anthony Edens on Jul 2, 2009 8:54:29 GMT -5
I just signed up again for Arm TV and have been watching countless elbow fouls that weren't called, but would have been at Unifieds. There needs to be a little more uniformity with this rule. One particular elbow foul that is the most common: when someone hits in a hook and drags the point of their elbow off the back of the pad. Never gets called in state level tournaments, but several people were fouled for it last weekend.
Maybe Leonard could make a video for referees?
I just think elbow fouls could ruin the sport if we don't have consistency.
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Post by Guy Lasorsa on Jul 2, 2009 9:21:35 GMT -5
This is true. elbow fouls are called different sometimes at state levels.
I think film is usually correct if the angle is right on, otherwise it sometimes isnt a foul though it may seem it on film.
I have seen a couple calls that the elbow didnt lift but rubbed the outer edge some and were called fouls. These I think should have a second or two to get completely back on because i dont believe they create advantage. Back of the pad can mean more advantage than side i believe.
i also seen some slips that could have been matches, but you travel far, its expensive, i think some leniency is Ok
Problem also is at the worlds they are even tighter on calls.
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Post by Jeremy Plaster on Jul 2, 2009 9:23:13 GMT -5
My personal opinion is that they should be called very tight at the state level to prepare you for Nationals. Then they should be called very tight at Nationals to prepare you for Worlds.
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Post by Leonard Harkless on Jul 2, 2009 10:21:41 GMT -5
This is true. elbow fouls are called different sometimes at state levels. I think film is usually correct if the angle is right on, otherwise it sometimes isnt a foul though it may seem it on film. I have seen a couple calls that the elbow didnt lift but rubbed the outer edge some and were called fouls. These I think should have a second or two to get completely back on because i dont believe they create advantage. Back of the pad can mean more advantage than side i believe. i also seen some slips that could have been matches, but you travel far, its expensive, i think some leniency is Ok Problem also is at the worlds they are even tighter on calls. Things will get missed, it is just too fast but if the tip is off it is off. Like being almost pregnant.......either it happened or it didn't. The "let'm pull" is an rally call for some and I personally would love that but the flat top pads don't allow that. I think, it was a huge mistake to change from the donuts to flat top elbow pads. Now there were bad donut pads but a shallow soft sided elbow pad would improve our sport so much it can't be stressed enough. The problem is that Europe has never pulled on them and they have no reference. Frankly most of the pullers in the US haven't either  |
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Post by Kurt Howgate on Jul 2, 2009 10:36:43 GMT -5
All the hoopla of late has been over the new pin lines taking over pin pads...but like Leonard says....probably the elbow pad SHOULD be the component getting modified.
There is nothing worse for this sport than a great match being stopped due to a tiny little elbow foul.
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Post by Bob Brown on Jul 2, 2009 10:56:33 GMT -5
If all elbow fouls were called at all events then we would not even have this conversation. But we want to see them pull. Well, if one person can't pull without there elbow leaving the pad than they are not strong enough to do the move they are trying to do.
Example. We had a guy a practice that lifted his elbow at every 'Go'. I would 'Hit' to within a inch from the pad and a long matched followed. But when he left his elbow down I hit him straight to the pad every time.
Example. Someone hits straight back on your hand, you lift you elbow a 1/2 inch to re-grip and then win, But without lifting that 1/2 inch you cant regrip and lose. Get a stronger hand so you dont have to regrip.
Example. You are in a deep hook and drag your elbow back to pin them but you cant. Then you drag your elbow back and go a 1/4 inch off the pad and pin him but you could not of won without that 1/4 inch. Get stronger.
I used to hate all the little calls that seamed not to effect the match. But then I realized that if the one puller was stronger or better they would not have to elbow foul.
Bottom line....Get strong enough to do your move without leaving the pad.
KEEP YOUR ELBOW DOWN
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Post by Bob Brown on Jul 2, 2009 10:59:06 GMT -5
Also we need uniformity in the rules from event to event. I love when a seasoned puller tells the ref "thats a slip in the losing position" and wants the win. Listen to the rules. Thats is not a loss.
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Post by Alper Cosar on Jul 2, 2009 13:18:42 GMT -5
I agree with Leonard!
Pads needs to be revised to minimize the elbow fauls....it is not spectator friendly at all.....last thing we need in this sport to grow it to the next level is no pulling......
Leonard or Simon,
is there a way to come up with a plan to offer this at upcoming WAF meeting? We have way too many elbow fauls in the sport......need to do something about it......
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Post by Max Moore on Jul 2, 2009 13:46:28 GMT -5
i dont see why elbow fouls are called when the guy is in a losing position resulting in a restart of the match. i have seen this happen a bunch of time then the guy who woulda lost comes back and wins.
elbow fouls should only be called if position is gained and/or it effects the outcome of the match imo.
in other words a person shouldnt be able to foul his way from a losing position back to a restart. if the guy hit you and got you to a losing position with out fouling, why should you be able to foul and restart the match giving you another shot? i understand there is some kind of 45 dgree rule or something but that is BS. whos gnna break out the angle finder to measure? that rule leaves to much open to interpretation.
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Post by simon on Jul 2, 2009 14:31:44 GMT -5
There are tons of instances where an elbow foul in the losing position can be a huge advantage and change the face of a match.
I used to pull a reverse top roller in California that would absorb your hit out to the right (right handed) and off of the pad.... since he was in a losing position, (on the lower side of straight up and down on his losing side of the table) it was not called a foul under the "only a foul if you gain position rule".
Since he has to be allowed to make some forward progress to get his elbow back on the pad and continue the match he would put his elbow back on the the closest corner and the pull continued.
The problem is that I am completely extended trying not to elbow foul off the front of my pad and now I am completely out of position for when he hits out back and around.
That is just one example.
The only rule that makes sense is the loss of contact is a foul rule, however I also agree the pads need to be changed... I drew a table with 7 by 7 inch square pads with square donuts around them an inch higher than elbow pad surface.
I made the table with some complicated double eye beam sensors that would light up your half of the table if you lost enough contact with the surface that both sets of beams could connect to the sensor across the pad. However a simple your elbow cannot breach the donut might suffice...
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Post by Pete & Tim on Jul 2, 2009 14:37:52 GMT -5
I'd like to point out that nowhere on numerous threads about elbow fouls have I ever seen anyone other than Americans complain about elbow fouls.
I wonder why.
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Post by Bob Brown on Jul 2, 2009 14:47:07 GMT -5
Because everyone else grew in the sport knowing and following the rules. They have always called the fouls so they are all used to it and keep their elbows down. This is how is should be.
Max,
A foul in the losing position should be called a loss as the rules state.
Simon,
Thats exactly why ALL fouls should be called.
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Post by John Parton on Jul 2, 2009 15:03:22 GMT -5
I want to start out by saying I loved the cups I think the sport was better and the hits consistently fiercer when we had them:D. Having said that I want to say this in 34 years of pulling I have fouled out of 2 matches. That's not to say I won't foul out of 10 in a row, but it is to say you can either complain about the rules or control yourself within them. I personally think the latter is better. In other words JUST DEAL WITH IT UNTIL IT CHANGES:D
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Post by Willie Reagan on Jul 2, 2009 15:53:51 GMT -5
I think the big problem here is not the pullers, it is the referees! The referees should call every foul as they see it. a foul should not be ignored or overlooked. Rules are rules for a reason, and they need to be followed. When some people practice, they are sloppy and do things that they are not allowed to do in a tournement. Alot of pullers develop bad training habits. The referees need to do their jobs and call fouls! We all know the rules, so lets stick by them.
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Post by Alper Cosar on Jul 2, 2009 15:56:48 GMT -5
There are tons of instances where an elbow foul in the losing position can be a huge advantage and change the face of a match. I used to pull a reverse top roller in California that would absorb your hit out to the right (right handed) and off of the pad.... since he was in a losing position, (on the lower side of straight up and down on his losing side of the table) it was not called a foul under the "only a foul if you gain position rule". Since he has to be allowed to make some forward progress to get his elbow back on the pad and continue the match he would put his elbow back on the the closest corner and the pull continued. The problem is that I am completely extended trying not to elbow foul off the front of my pad and now I am completely out of position for when he hits out back and around. That is just one example. The only rule that makes sense is the loss of contact is a foul rule, however I also agree the pads need to be changed... I drew a table with 7 by 7 inch square pads with square donuts around them an inch higher than elbow pad surface. I made the table with some complicated double eye beam sensors that would light up your half of the table if you lost enough contact with the surface that both sets of beams could connect to the sensor across the pad. However a simple your elbow cannot breach the donut might suffice... Simon, I would like to see a picture of these pads (drawing is fine too) can we get it up here? Currently the pads are making the elbows to come off easier with their design. As explosive as Armwrestling is we need some help with the elbow lifts so the match continues.......people want to see armwrestling not refs giving out fauls and stopping the match so often..... |
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