Full results from European Championships

[Charlie Minell]

www.worldofarmwrestling.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6944

[Neil Pickup]

Thanks Charlie,

The foul count in this years event was SHOCKING !

The rule system at EAF & WAF is in desperate need of a review as we are killing the appeal of our sport.

The finals of the left hand were beyond belief with 90% of the finals ending on minor fouls and referee intervention, simply disgraceful.

We desperately need to wake up to the reality that Armwrestling should be about Armwrestling matches not fouls. A truly talented referee is the individual who can allow a match to run to its conclusion with both athletes happy that they Armwrestled to the best of their ability and won or lost. The viewing audience also want to see matches concluded by Armwrestlers NOTON FOULS.

This is a VERY VERY SERIOUS ISSUE at Amateur Elite level right now

Regards

Neil

[Bilevicius Rimvydas]

not bad... LIthuanian team took 10'th place from 22 countries> Egle Vaitkute was undefeated and took 2 gold medals... thats awesome. Russian team was stronger than all other countries counting together...

[Rob Vigeant Jr.]

Jun 5, 2010 17:27:04 GMT -5 Neil Pickup said:

Thanks Charlie,

The foul count in this years event was SHOCKING !

The rule system at EAF & WAF is in desperate need of a review as we are killing the appeal of our sport.

The finals of the left hand were beyond belief with 90% of the finals ending on minor fouls and referee intervention, simply disgraceful.

We desperately need to wake up to the reality that Armwrestling should be about Armwrestling matches not fouls. A truly talented referee is the individual who can allow a match to run to its conclusion with both athletes happy that they Armwrestled to the best of their ability and won or lost. The viewing audience also want to see matches concluded by Armwrestlers NOTON FOULS.

This is a VERY VERY SERIOUS ISSUE at Amateur Elite level right now

Regards

Neil

agreed, fouls for any minor infraction is garbage.

i think for the most part you can tell when a foul is an accidental bump or slip as opposed to really trying to avoid a match by running off the pad or intentional hops for advantage.

I lost 2 matches at rotn without getting pinned because of foul in losing postion.......and I feel that once I had the match stopped I was in good shape to win.
If you are getting into the match and are willing to pull( not slipping under or bailing..or even running way off the back of the pad ) you should not get a loss for foul in losing position.
At the very least it should be a restart if you show some sort of control.
This is a money tournament................each place had a considerable difference in pay...........bumping someone out of the event without actual pins is tough to swallow............and it isn't the first time I was the agressor and got bumped from an event for a tiny elbow slip.

Lets get to the nitty gritty and see who is better.


I know there needs to be some black and white or a standard, but this is a problem in growing the sport and really seeing where we fall when put in the same bracket.

[Johnny Edwards]

How come none of our guys ever go an give that tournament a shot?

[Charlie Minell]

I agree Neil. It's awful to see all the fouls destroy the sport like this, and I don't get why nothing is done about it. If nothing can be done with these pads something must be changed with them. Isn't that quite obvious? What is holding back the progress? Who wants it this way?

[Bob Brown]

Jun 5, 2010 19:43:30 GMT -5 Johnny Edwards said:

How come none of our guys ever go an give that tournament a shot?

I have asked. You have to be from a European county.

[Johnny Edwards]

Oh I see. So someone from here cannot go over there an pull then.

[Todd Smiley]

Minor fouls, major, fouls, where do you differentiate the two? Is it up to the ref and their many different opinions to decide what was a major or minor foul?

I liked the events better where a ref would give a warning to someone for elbows getting close to the edge or a little hop that didn't result in an advantage, better than an event where those would have been called fouls and the match stopped. I have also seen places where an obvious bail/foul was made in a losing position (2-3 inches from the pin pad) and it restarted when the win should have been called.

In the end though it should be the competitors who need to prevent the fouls and keep the matches going, not the refs deciding what is minor and not to call or what is major an needs to be called...

[Rob Vigeant Jr.]

Unfortunatel some refs are not UNbiased......PERIOD.
Certain calls that should be black and white are not when it comes to legends, local standouts or friends.
Politics is now a part of the game if you want the dice to roll your way.....that is bullsh!t.
I have seen it........SOME refs over exercise their power and results get botched over nothing.
There is a difference and as Neil said it takes a talented ref to know the difference....but it isn't black and white.
Fouls happen alot................some huge.........some very minor, like in a deep hook and resetting your elbow............you are sitting on your elbow so you can't drag it so you give it a little pop to reposition with NO drive or position gain..............FOUL.........gimme a break.
That is the sh!t that ruins BIG events..............there is a difference in fouls, but it depends on the ref and politics.
If you are willing to suck a$$ you can get the lazy eye treatment, but if not you will have the hawk eye on ur ass and if your pulse is over 100 BPM in a refs grip its a foul..............god forbid in the summer heat you need to shake your jelly beans from your leg you may be thrown from the entire venue.

[Charlie Minell]

I don't mean to say that anyone who doesn't think as I do is wrong, but I think it has been proven for many years now that it doesn't work to put all responsibility on the armwrestlers, that it's up to them to keep the elbows on the pads. It's a good thought but apparently it doesn't work, not even in major championships like the Europeans and the Worlds. And it's at those tournaments the problem just gets worse, at least what it seems. Yet we continue to impose responsibility on the armwrestlers as if they would stop with it just because we ask them to. And while we are waiting for miracles to happen our sport hurts from it. It's time to wake up, as Neil says. This doesn't work, does it?
Of course a lot of responsibility SHOULD be on the armwrestler, to really try to keep the elbows on the pad, I'm not saying anything about that. And you can obviously change the rules so it reduces some of the fouls, but I don't think we will get rid of the majority of them until we have changed the pads so we get rid of all those little unnecessary fouls.
What was the reason now again, what is it that speaks against that we should use cupped pads?
I hope I don't sound too harsh.. it's not my intention. I'm just surprised we don't do anything about one of our biggest problems we have in the sport while it literally destroys the sport infront of our eyes.
I may sound a little too dramatic, but it is the truth.

[John Wilson]

Fouls are killing the sport. This can all be pointed directly at the WAF. FIX the pads so that minor fouls don't occur, or CHANGE THE RULES. Only a pathetic moron doesn't understand the problem by now.

The WAF style elbow pads SUCK. I've been saying this for over ten years and I'm tired of hearing myself say it. You cannot wrap a brick in vinyl and then act surprised when 80% of the matches end in fouls. And it is intellectual dishonesty to tell people they need to learn to armwrestle without fouling. Fine. WAF pullers can all be slow hookers with no hit and no elbow movement. ZZZZZZZZZZZ The crowd has left the building.

The WAF has never won any awards for being forward thinking or even reasonable. But they had better get one thing straight: The WAF will die a slow death if they don't remember that once upon a time this sport was about actual armwrestling.

As more and more quality pro events like Neil's, Engin's, Woody's, and now Venice come around quality pullers are going to drop the WAF amatuer-hour blind-leading-the-blind organization. If something doesn't change the WAF will be a memory.

So goes the WAF, so goes every organization that leads up to the WAF Worlds.

[John Wilson]

Cross posted with you, Charlie.

You said it better than I did.

[Charlie Minell]

You actually said a bunch of things I wish I had added in my post..

[Bicio]

I Think the fouls ARE A PROBLEM.
But I've always heard it...in the past 15years.. the fouls have been a problem... and if the WAF does not change the rules or pads or whatever.. so simply will die...

NO PROBLEM... USA pullers will continues to pull and europeans too

The fact is that we want a solution and not only complaints.

The cupped pads are a solution for all the problems we seen in the last BIG supermatch or tournament?? maybe...

But....who will decide that...
I don't know but i think the best commission are armwrestlers.

I remember a video of Bob Brown talking about PARALLEL PIN and REFEREE GRIP; he said something about EVOLUTION and PROGRESS in our sport and the SOLUTIONS to the PROBLEMS even if they're small problem (for someone a foul is a small problem... for others.. as RVJ a foul means to be kicked out of a tournament so little bigger)

I think it's time that every one should say his way to solve the problems.

This is the link about referee grip www.myarmtv.com/player.php?id=585

And this about pararell pin www.myarmtv.com/player.php?id=584

The politic problem in this way should be avoid ... I hope at least!!
I must say that referees mistakes are pretty normal in many sports but is own to THE SYSTEM to give to refs the right and fair tools to judge in the best way.

Naturally IMHO.
The perfection is only of GOD