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Post by David Owens on Sept 3, 2011 15:46:04 GMT -5
Any progress From the usaf board on coming up with a guideline?
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Post by Bill Collins on Sept 4, 2011 10:49:43 GMT -5
Being that you and few others bought this to me, I'll respond..it also included Novice/Amateur/Pro....
My objective was for the board to support the request (different between Novice/Amateur/Pro/Open) from the pullers who make this organization and endorse a supporting guideline, a document or a platform for organizations to use as a tool..(regardless if USAF offer these classes or can’t control or manage the guide)…
The word endorse was too heavy and the political correct verbiage came into play, along with other shake my head comments….rather I use the word assist or endorse it became black and white and seem to make a big difference, hence making it an endless battle…and next time I see you I'll give you the all the details...
NAP & UAL does not offer a Novice class, just an Amateur/Open and will develop a written guide that others can use if they choose…
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Post by David Owens on Sept 4, 2011 11:35:34 GMT -5
Being that you and few others bought this to me, I'll respond..it also included Novice/Amateur/Pro.... My objective was for the board to support the request (different between Novice/Amateur/Pro/Open) from the pullers who make this organization and endorse a supporting guideline, a document or a platform for organizations to use as a tool..(regardless if USAF offer these classes or can’t control or manage the guide)… The word endorse was too heavy and the political correct verbiage came into play, along with other shake my head comments….rather I use the word assist or endorse it became black and white and seem to make a big difference, hence making it an endless battle…and next time I see you I'll give you the all the details... NAP & UAL does not offer a Novice class, just an Amateur/Open and will develop a written guide that others can use if they choose… can't control it? maybe only because they really don't want to either for reasons of personal headache or loss of entrees....not sure what other reason there could be....all that is needed is a database and we could control it so that to me is a copout doesn't pertain to USAF? forgive me if I'm wrong but USAF is the umbrella org that everyone else (besides AAA of course) looks to for guidelines and such....if all the USAF board is there for is unifieds and worlds then the armwrestling community should be looking into puttting togather a board of its own to help unify us and one who is willing and able to take steps in the right direction as regards to topics like this.....JMO |
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Post by Bill Collins on Sept 4, 2011 12:38:36 GMT -5
Being that you and few others bought this to me, I'll respond..it also included Novice/Amateur/Pro.... My objective was for the board to support the request (different between Novice/Amateur/Pro/Open) from the pullers who make this organization and endorse a supporting guideline, a document or a platform for organizations to use as a tool..(regardless if USAF offer these classes or can’t control or manage the guide)… The word endorse was too heavy and the political correct verbiage came into play, along with other shake my head comments….rather I use the word assist or endorse it became black and white and seem to make a big difference, hence making it an endless battle…and next time I see you I'll give you the all the details... NAP & UAL does not offer a Novice class, just an Amateur/Open and will develop a written guide that others can use if they choose… can't control it? maybe only because they really don't want to either for reasons of personal headache or loss of entrees....not sure what other reason there could be....all that is needed is a database and we could control it so that to me is a copout doesn't pertain to USAF? forgive me if I'm wrong but USAF is the umbrella org that everyone else (besides AAA of course) looks to for guidelines and such....if all the USAF board is there for is unifieds and worlds then the armwrestling community should be looking into puttting togather a board of its own to help unify us and one who is willing and able to take steps in the right direction as regards to topics like this.....JMO Personally, I can careless about controlling it, the propose was a GUIDELINE and a PLATFORM for people to follow if they choose. It's more complex then to create your own board as it's solves nothing, there are to many orginization who have there own path...I can honestly say that some things are moving in the right direction (USAF)... I'll be brutally honest i have to ask myself would thing move differently if all board members were pullers not owning an organization? Absolutely (I think).....but....I also think there is a place for organizations on the board (experience)....regardless cross roads prevail.... To be honest David, I beat this up for two weeks and I'm done with it, as mentioned NAP & UAL will create a written document for people to use if they choose... |
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Post by Karen Bean on Sept 4, 2011 14:25:50 GMT -5
Any progress From the usaf board on coming up with a guideline? The USAF board was not asked to come up with a guideline regarding Novice. |
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Post by David Owens on Sept 4, 2011 16:20:02 GMT -5
Any progress From the usaf board on coming up with a guideline? The USAF board was not asked to come up with a guideline regarding Novice. Should we have to ask the president of the US to try and decrease the national deficate or just expect that in his position he will take inititive to do what is in the best interest of all of us? Has the topic been brought up before the USAF board? I know it has been brought up on this forum enough times, you would think someone would take it before the board. |
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Post by Karen Bean on Sept 4, 2011 16:26:02 GMT -5
The USAF board was not asked to come up with a guideline regarding Novice. Should we have to ask the president of the US to try and decrease the national deficate or just expect that in his position he will take inititive to do what is in the best interest of all of us? Has the topic been brought up before the USAF board? David, no need for the attempted sarcasm. You asked if there was any progress from the board on coming up with a guideline. I answered your question honestly. No one asked the board to come up with a guideline. |
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Post by David Owens on Sept 4, 2011 16:34:16 GMT -5
Should we have to ask the president of the US to try and decrease the national deficate or just expect that in his position he will take inititive to do what is in the best interest of all of us? Has the topic been brought up before the USAF board? David, no need for the attempted sarcasm. You asked if there was any progress from the board on coming up with a guideline. I answered your question honestly. No one asked the board to come up with a guideline. there was no sarcasm if someone brought the issue before the board then isn't that the same as asking them to solve the issue? How many times has the topic been brought up in threads directed towards the USAF board......how many USAF board members did myself and Bill Arnold email with a proposal/example of what could be done as a guideline for what is the definition of novice/amatuer/pro/open .......so how is that not asking you to come up with or assist in the coming up with or endorsing of a guideline It seems rather than help the resolve the issue some would rather think of reasons to not even try....IMO if you are not helping progress you are standing in its way |
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Post by David Owens on Sept 4, 2011 16:39:08 GMT -5
I wonder how hard it would be for someone like Leech for example to come up with a program that would act as a database that could be on any computer, where you could simply type in an armwrestlers name and his current class would pop up? dont see how it could be very difficult at all
I think the biggest reason for this not happening is people not being able to collect a couple extra entree fees from people who probably dont belong in that class........why else would people not be helping to come up with a way to solve this issue?
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Post by Bill Arnold on Sept 4, 2011 17:02:31 GMT -5
David, as you recall, you and I put a good bit of thought and communication into this topic, along with great assistance from John Wilson, Bob Sutton, and others early in 2010. Our goal was to establish "ACROSS THE BOARD" definitions for puller status, and get the various organizations to "endorse" the definitions, so each tournament director could have something to go by when allowing pullers to compete. While we did get feedback from some of the organization leaders, none were willing or able to take the step of endorsement.
It seemed that each organization had slightly different reasons for not adopting something common. For example, some didn't recognize Novice. Some already have their own guidelines, although very few can recite them or post them. I still agree today as strongly as I did last year, that it's a shame that at least one of the bodies doesn't step forward with something more solid in the way of a unified definition. And it's a bigger shame that at least two or more of the bodies don't collaborate to endorse a unified definition. As more athletes enter the sport, this becomes increasingly important.
I appreciate each organization, and my hat goes off to those that contribute their time to take a leadership role - Bill, Bill, Simon, Karen, and others. We all know that it's a thankless, costly job. But determining a definition is something that would move this sport along. Not sure if the reluctance to tackle this topic is due to lack of time, lack of interest, personality conflicts, turf-ism, or if the organizations don't recognize the importance. But as I recall, the direction this topic took last year was clearly to ONLY define a novice, amateur, and pro. We had all agreed that taking the next steps, such as how to track the statuses, creating pro cards, etc., would be future steps.
David, I'm going to post last year's draft that you and I had worked on - the same draft that went out to all the organization leaders. I think it's worthwhile for people to read it completely and understand why this is an important topic. The definitions we drafted were done with the input of many.
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Post by Bill Arnold on Sept 4, 2011 17:04:44 GMT -5
Proposed Armwrestling Guidelines for Novice, Amateur, and Professional Levels
In order for an athlete to break into a sport, he or she must be able to participate at a level that allows them to be competitive as well as safe. As an athlete obtains an appropriate level of skill and success, he or she must progress to the next level. In the sport of armwrestling, some tournaments and organizations offer levels of competition for Novice, Amateur, and Professional athletes. Professional may also be referred to as “Open.”
Each athlete progresses at his or her own pace, and there are certain guidelines that should be used to determine when it is appropriate to move to the next level. It should be the goal of most armwrestlers to attain Professional status, and it should be the obligation of the armwrestling community to encourage an individual to leave the Novice or Amateur levels when they begin to dominate their competition.
The following criteria are being offered as guidelines for when a person is ready to move out of the Novice or Amateur levels:
An armwrestler should be considered “NOVICE” (or Beginner) as long as one or more of the following are true:
• Athlete has not competed in more than five tournaments at any level above junior/kid/teenage divisions
• Athlete’s bones are still in the developmental years, such as a teenager
• Athlete has not won first place in more than two novice tournaments with at least four competitors in his/her class
• Athlete has not won first place in any professional or open tournament with at least four competitors in his/her class
• Athlete does not exhibit adequate skill to move to the amateur division
• Athlete has some form of challenge, physical or mental, that prohibits him/her from progressing to the amateur division
An armwrestler should be considered “AMATEUR” as long as one or more of the following are true:
• Athlete has not placed in the top 3 of any sanctioned National or World event in the professional division
• Athlete has not won first place in any professional or open tournament with at least four competitors in his/her class
• Athlete has not won more than three amateur tournaments at a state level or below
• Athlete has not won a National or World amateur tournament
• Athlete does not exhibit adequate skill to move to the professional division
• Athlete has some form of challenge, physical or mental, that prohibits him/her from progressing to the professional division
An armwrestler should be considered “PROFESSIONAL” (or Open) when:
• Athlete conforms to the technical or ethical standards of the sport, and is physically capable of competing at the highest level
**If an armwrestler with AMATEUR status attends a tournament with only NOVICE and PROFESSIONAL, then he or she should compete at the higher level so as not to unfairly dominate athletes in the lower level.
BACKGROUND INFORMATION FOR DEVELOPING GUIDELINES
There are many definitions for what determines a “professional” athlete. One common definition deals with the concept of making a living by way of prize money. Any “professional” armwrestler will tell you that it is a very few that could ever make a living at this sport. So we are proposing that a secondary definition be applied to a “professional” armwrestler. A PROFESSIONAL armwrestler is one who conforms to the technical or ethical standards of the sport, and is physically capable of competing at the highest level.
For years, the sport of armwrestling has enticed newcomers who believed that all you needed to succeed was a strong arm. Those newcomers would quickly get discouraged when pitted against a seasoned “professional” with a much smaller physique. The occasional inclusion of “amateur” or even “novice” divisions have been a great addition to the sport, allowing athletes new to the sport, to learn techniques and compete at a level that is more appropriate to their skill.
The governing bodies of armwrestling in the United States do not typically define or enforce rules that differentiate between a “novice” or “amateur” or “professional” in a unified manner. These bodies focus primarily on the development of professional armwrestling, as well they should, and defining novice and amateur athletes is beyond what anyone expects of them. Presently, there is no way to track each person’s progress, since there is no solitary database to collect wins/losses.
These GUIDELINES are intended to serve as a basis for allowing participants and tournament directors to more fairly categorize a level that is appropriate for each wrestler’s skill and ability. The goal is to utilize these guidelines, not as a mandate to restrict any one individual from competing at a level he or she feels they need to compete, but as a mechanism to measure oneself and compete at a level that is challenging to the athlete without being unfair to his or her opponents.
It should be the goal of most armwrestlers to progress to the highest level of competition possible. Only by competing at a higher level, will we attain a higher skill. We expect all armwrestlers to recognize their accomplishments and hard work, and move themselves up to the next division when they have arrived at a point when they will benefit more at that higher level. As a community of athletes, it is our duty to encourage our fellow athletes to progress upward at the appropriate time.
The ultimate decision as to which level an athlete competes will first rest with the athlete himself/herself. But as an armwrestling community, we all expect fair competition, and therefore, a tournament director will always have the right to disallow an athlete from competing at a particular level if that director has reason to believe that the athlete should compete at a higher level for that particular event.
We ask that the most recognized governing bodies of the sport today, review these guidelines and provide their endorsement. Those governing bodies are:
****** The governing bodies that choose to give their endorsement will be listed here, along with the date.
Guidelines Drafted by David Owens Jr. (TN) and Bill Arnold (OH), with input from many veterans of the armwrestling community.
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Post by Karen Bean on Sept 4, 2011 17:10:19 GMT -5
David, no need for the attempted sarcasm. You asked if there was any progress from the board on coming up with a guideline. I answered your question honestly. No one asked the board to come up with a guideline. there was no sarcasm if someone brought the issue before the board then isn't that the same as asking them to solve the issue? How many times has the topic been brought up in threads directed towards the USAF board......how many USAF board members did myself and Bill Arnold email with a proposal/example of what could be done as a guideline for what is the definition of novice/amatuer/pro/open .......so how is that not asking you to come up with or assist in the coming up with or endorsing of a guideline It seems rather than help the resolve the issue some would rather think of reasons to not even try....IMO if you are not helping progress you are standing in its way We were given the exact same proposed guidelines that were sent out a year and a half ago to a number of promoters in this country and we were asked simply to endorse it. As is, no changes, additions, deletions - as is. Some of us entered into discussions regarding the guidelines. After 3 days of discussion via email, conversation regarding this issue ceased. I, myself, brought up the fact that if we, the USAF, were to endorse any guidelines regarding Novice then we would need something in place to basically govern it , i.e. setting up a database of pullers, recording events competed in, how the placed, etc. and a way in which to notify the tournament hosts as well as competitors of a change in an athlete's status. This was not looked upon favorably. IMO, it is not feasible for the USAF or anyone out there to endorse anything - no matter what it may be - if you are not using it or actively participating with it. I don't believe the USAF should offer itself up in the same manner as some outdated film star that has relegated themselves to pimping products on television when we all know perfectly well they not only do not use the product but also have no real knowledge of the product. For the USAF to say "we endorse this" we should, IMO, have a plan of action for us to be completely and totally committed to it and actively involved in every aspect of it. I agree completely that there needs to be guidelines/governing regarding Novice categories - which is exactly why AAA created governing guidelines within AAA years ago. Equally, USAA has guidelines governing Novice categories. To my knowledge, we are the ONLY 2 armwrestling organizations in this country that has done so. So as to your previous comment regarding "everyone else (besides AAA of course) looks to USAF for guidelines" - in this instance you are exactly correct when it comes to AAA. |
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Post by John Wilson on Sept 4, 2011 17:19:10 GMT -5
Which is exactly why I favor a "pull" system rather than a "push" system.
What do I mean by that?
I think it could be helpful to approach this issue from the other direction. In my opinion most people desire to be a Pro. If you had to EARN a pro card to pull Pro / Open then you don't have to "push" people out of the Novice. Their own pride will be on the line and they will strive to earn Pro status.
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Post by Bill Arnold on Sept 4, 2011 17:35:31 GMT -5
Hi Karen - I have to disagree with your first statement back to David. I was the one that presented this to the organizations, and it is not a true statement that you were asked to endorse the guidelines "as is." You were asked to provide opinions on the drafted guidelines via an e-mail from me on May 11. In fact, we even incorporated suggested changes from Bill Cox. Here is the exact request that went to the group:
"Why are we contacting you? As leaders of some of the most recognizable and active organizations in the country, we would like to get your opinions and endorsements of these guidelines. This endorsement does not mean that anyone expects them to be turned into rules. It simply means that you find these guidelines reasonable and appropriate as a tool to help guide appropriate placement of athletes. "
Karen, we knew it wasn't feasible that all the boards would get together and draft something like this - which is why representatives of the community did it and presented a draft copy and solicited the opinions - and hopefully, endorsements.
It's good that at least one of the organizations has a definition of Novice. However, our request was for ALL the recognized organizations to adopt a "unified" definition. And that is exactly what David and I and many others attempted to do...draft a unified definition, present it to many of the organization leaders, request their opinion, and eventually get an endorsement.
So, with this said, I think it's a fair question to the various organization leaders - "Can you come up with a UNIFIED definition of Novice, Amateur, and Pro pullers?" - and please accept the work that we have done as a starting point.
Thanks
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Post by Bill Arnold on Sept 4, 2011 18:06:50 GMT -5
Karen -
I just re-read my last post, and the first part sounded kind of snotty from me - which was not my intention - sorry. (I'm never snotty, sarcastic, or mean!!!) What I SHOULD have said / indicated is that I believe you misinterpreted my request last year, since I did ask for opinions.
Still hoping that you all can work together at the Leader level and help with this topic.
Thanks - Bill
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