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Post by Vazgen Soghoyan on Sept 16, 2011 0:53:59 GMT -5
Dear Friends, It is high time to think about updating some parts of Our Sport, particulary the System of Ranking the pullers in USA. Existing Ranking system brings a lot of thoughts, complains, discussions, bunch of unhappy people by an every update. Everyone bring their arguments and most of them are quite right. So, what to do? The Author that makes todays Rankings does a job that keeps most athletes not satisfied. Maybe it is the time for the Change? Maybe, it is time to create a new thing in this? You know, Evolution walks with us, but some times is not always being used properly. Well, different sports have different types of Rankings. In most cases it depends on that Type of sports. I am not a Ranking Specialist in all sports, but we can learn from others as well. Let's do it together. Each of us can make his own research, and give an idea of a New Generation Ranking System, and if that satisfies more than the half of US armwrestlers, that project can be a reality. Feel free to discuss, critisize, add a detail, opinion to any Ranking Idea. But when you are doing that please try bring in something better, new offer ( detail or whole project). Then the best offer will be voted and come true. Nothing Genius, just a little work can change this picture. I was thinking about a project recently and now perhaps is the best moment to present you that. Please, feel free to critisize , HEALTHY critisize it. It will make it better and better. SAme will happen with any idea. In Short , Democracy wins, We win. Let start this, I suggest to Value each Event in the United States and give points for 1st, 2dn, 3rd places there. The Value of the Event is based on it's caliber ( size, importance, quality of pullers, etc). Let's start the Hierarchy of Events from the Top. Unifieds NAtional Championship- 10 points (1st place), 8 ( 2nd) , 5 (3rd). USAA Nationals - 8 , 5 , 2 AAA Nationals - 8 , 5, 2 ACAC - 10, 8, 5 UAL - 8, 5, 2, State Championships - 3, 2, 1 Supermatches- SM brings 1 point each win. This is an individual choise. Winning a puller in higher rank at any Event brings additional 5 points(must be in same class). So, Handeland's " Who beats Who" princip may work almost always!  Athlete must confirm at the beginning of the season ( year) his ranking weight class, so he will be ranked there. A serious athlete knows where he pulls. Athlete in the US ranking lives in USA. Ranking weight classes can stay the same or be changed. Rankings must be updated every month, so it will be more sensitive to any news. Rankings must be done by an Organization ( USAF, I suggest), or a person who is recommended by that Organization. Rankings must work by a computer programm. This is a very simple programm that calculates the inserted numbers. Any "computer guy" among us can create something like that special for AW, and The man who does rankings just collects information and inserts points there, then the programm does the job. Points cannot be earned by pulling multiple classes. For Example if Vazgen goes to some Event and wins 70 kg, 80 kg , 90 kg, etc , he earnd just his 70 kg points. Otherwise, Vazgen can be the leader in ranking at once. This is not allowed. Small tournament ( local), festivals are not counted. Master classes wins don't bring points. We can create it separate. In this Rankings, a puller who is not active for some time, loses position. His opponents, who are avtive, travel, pull , win, they earn more and more points and pass him. The guy automaticly dropps. WAF World Championship Medal gives more points than can be earned in several US events altogether. So, the puller that travel, spends money, works hard, wins, gets more points. Something like 30, 25, 20. Nemiroff also can work same way- 25, 20, 18. By this system , You win , you earn your rank. No matter it is a title or who beats who. System calculates for you. So, what you think about this? |
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Post by David Owens on Sept 16, 2011 1:57:54 GMT -5
Dear Friends, It is high time to think about updating some parts of Our Sport, particulary the System of Ranking the pullers in USA. Existing Ranking system brings a lot of thoughts, complains, discussions, bunch of unhappy people by an every update. Everyone bring their arguments and most of them are quite right. So, what to do? The Author that makes todays Rankings does a job that keeps most athletes not satisfied. Maybe it is the time for the Change? Maybe, it is time to create a new thing in this? You know, Evolution walks with us, but some times is not always being used properly. Well, different sports have different types of Rankings. In most cases it depends on that Type of sports. I am not a Ranking Specialist in all sports, but we can learn from others as well. Let's do it together. Each of us can make his own research, and give an idea of a New Generation Ranking System, and if that satisfies more than the half of US armwrestlers, that project can be a reality. Feel free to discuss, critisize, add a detail, opinion to any Ranking Idea. But when you are doing that please try bring in something better, new offer ( detail or whole project). Then the best offer will be voted and come true. Nothing Genius, just a little work can change this picture. I was thinking about a project recently and now perhaps is the best moment to present you that. Please, feel free to critisize , HEALTHY critisize it. It will make it better and better. SAme will happen with any idea. In Short , Democracy wins, We win. Let start this, I suggest to Value each Event in the United States and give points for 1st, 2dn, 3rd places there. The Value of the Event is based on it's caliber ( size, importance, quality of pullers, etc). Let's start the Hierarchy of Events from the Top. Unifieds NAtional Championship- 10 points (1st place), 8 ( 2nd) , 5 (3rd). USAA Nationals - 8 , 5 , 2 AAA Nationals - 8 , 5, 2 ACAC - 10, 8, 5 UAL - 8, 5, 2, State Championships - 3, 2, 1 I love your optimism Vasgen, the problem with this portion of your proposal is that if puller a only goes to State Championship and beats the puller who won all three nationals he would still be belowe that guy. Not to mention the fact that placing value on an event is very much an opinion based method rather than fact. Who is to come up with the importance of each event the USAF board......I'm sorry to say but the powers that be will all argue that their event is every bit as important as the others (even if they know this is not the case) if for no other reason than keeping legitimacy with their pullers. i know you said give a better idea so hear is mine, form a pullers union and let them decide the importance of the events rather than the promoters after all this is who we are trying to please correct? Supermatches- SM brings 1 point each win. This is an individual choise. Winning a puller in higher rank at any Event brings additional 5 points(must be in same class). So, Handeland's " Who beats Who" princip may work almost always! Athlete must confirm at the beginning of the season ( year) his ranking weight class, so he will be ranked there. A serious athlete knows where he pulls. Athlete in the US ranking lives in USA. Ranking weight classes can stay the same or be changed. Rankings must be updated every month, so it will be more sensitive to any news. Rankings must be done by an Organization ( USAF, I suggest), or a person who is recommended by that Organization. Rankings must work by a computer programm. This is a very simple programm that calculates the inserted numbers. Any "computer guy" among us can create something like that special for AW, and The man who does rankings just collects information and inserts points there, then the programm does the job. Points cannot be earned by pulling multiple classes. For Example if Vazgen goes to some Event and wins 70 kg, 80 kg , 90 kg, etc , he earnd just his 70 kg points. Otherwise, Vazgen can be the leader in ranking at once. This is not allowed. Small tournament ( local), festivals are not counted. Master classes wins don't bring points. We can create it separate. In this Rankings, a puller who is not active for some time, loses position. His opponents, who are avtive, travel, pull , win, they earn more and more points and pass him. The guy automaticly dropps. WAF World Championship Medal gives more points than can be earned in several US events altogether. So, the puller that travel, spends money, works hard, wins, gets more points. Something like 30, 25, 20. Nemiroff also can work same way- 25, 20, 18. By this system , You win , you earn your rank. No matter it is a title or who beats who. System calculates for you. So, what you think about this? I like the fact that your proposal would bring about some much needed legitimacy to these events especially State championships but personaly if I go to the fair down the road and beat Luke Kindt I would want it to count for something, I think you are saying no to these so the local heroes won't be racking up points by pulling only local which might be ok if you said only beating a ranked puller earns you points at a local event and placing does nothing? just a thought |
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Post by Vazgen Soghoyan on Sept 16, 2011 2:54:29 GMT -5
About"..... if puller a only goes to State Championship and beats the puller who won all three nationals he would still be belowe that guy".
By My system it means if you take 1st place in a State Championship you earn 3 points. If You beat there a puller who won all 3 nationals ( and probably he will be ranked higher than you) , you'll earn 5 additional poitns. You'll earn 3+5=8 points at that State Championship ( if same hand).
Anyway if you beat that guy by today's ranking system ( for example he is in 2nd rank, you are 7th or 8th), you will not take his position or higher. My system says, You won State Event, it's good, have your 3 poits. Then You beat that guy, much better, 5 more poitns! But He has 3 Nats titles, it's not a joke. He has 10+8+8=26 points. You are just getting closer to him, but not higher.
You may beat him in Unifieds. Take 1st place , earn your 10 points. Beat such a guy, get 5 more points. But, in an Even such as Unifieds, you have chance to meet more pullers that ranked higher than you. Then, if you are Better, beat them and earn more and more points. 5 point each guy. David, for example, if you are on 7th place in 80kg class rankings, in Unifieds you may have chance to meet most guys higher than your position. If you beat them and take 1st place, just calculate your total amount. You may reach and even pass them in rankings. You say you are strong, so go ahead win and earn your rank. Very simple.
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Post by David Owens on Sept 16, 2011 8:27:42 GMT -5
About".....Anyway if you beat that guy by today's ranking system ( for example he is in 2nd rank, you are 7th or 8th), you will not take his position or higher. . by todays "Josh's" ranking system if you beat that guy reguardless of where you are ranked you WILL TAKE HIS SPOT (case in point Logsden over Rakers at 90k) unless there is some underlying variable to consider like "I HAD GREAT SEX LAST NIGHT" , maybe less of those variables should go into rankings and then people would stop putting their arm on the table when they were not truly prepared. As for your point system, I think it would be a fun idea to try if for no other reason than to add reason for pullers to go to certain events, but I also think points need to fall off after a certain amount of time like say 1 year or maybe 2 because how many points would Cobra Rhodes or Alan Fisher have after all these years of pulling? without dropping off points that were accumulated over a year or so ago the system would cater to not only those who go to more events but also to those who have been around the longest |
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Post by Bob Brown on Sept 16, 2011 8:39:45 GMT -5
Have every event videoed and sent to ArmTV. Have every matched tagged.
The rankings will be done.
The more data entered into a system will show better and better rankings. Just look at the ArmTV rankings now. They are getting better. They just need more data.
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Post by Karen Bean on Sept 16, 2011 8:45:00 GMT -5
Good idea with the point system Vazgen. Excellent! Takes out the "opinions" of who may be able to beat who.
Personally, I would not offer any points for Supermatches though. They aren't fair to everyone because they are not offered to everyone. Only a select few would be able to try to achieve points while the rest would never even be offered.
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Post by David Owens on Sept 16, 2011 8:54:16 GMT -5
Good idea with the point system Vazgen. Excellent! Takes out the "opinions" of who may be able to beat who. Personally, I would not offer any points for Supermatches though. They aren't fair to everyone because they are not offered to everyone. Only a select few would be able to try to achieve points while the rest would never even be offered. I have to agree but if you beat a ranked puller in a supermatch you should still get points for beating them, and maybe not additional for the match itself right? otherwise many many of our big matchups today would have NO effect on the rankings. |
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Post by David Owens on Sept 16, 2011 8:55:46 GMT -5
Have every event videoed and sent to ArmTV. Have every matched tagged. The rankings will be done. The more data entered into a system will show better and better rankings. Just look at the ArmTV rankings now. They are getting better. They just need more data. I agree but not sure this will ever happen, many people you tube the videos and many people are not members of arm tv |
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Post by Anthony Edens on Sept 16, 2011 9:08:00 GMT -5
I think the point system is what seems to be desired by at least the 80kg guys. The ranking is a motivation to attend tournaments. I think the points would need to reset every January 1st. I would say if you enter a super/challenge match with a ranked puller, if the lower ranked puller wins, he/she gets the 5 points for beating a higher ranked puller, but no more. If the higher ranked puller wins, he gets the money but no points. Maybe we can come up with some cool awards to give to the highest ranked puller at the end of each year? This system would heavily favor certain geographic areas. California for example has about half of the ranked 80kg guys. They will run into each other at just about every tournament. Guys like John Parton have to spend a lot more money to have a chance to stay in the rankings.
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Post by David Owens on Sept 16, 2011 9:14:13 GMT -5
I think the point system is what seems to be desired by at least the 80kg guys. The ranking is a motivation to attend tournaments. I think the points would need to reset every January 1st. I would say if you enter a super/challenge match with a ranked puller, if the lower ranked puller wins, he/she gets the 5 points for beating a higher ranked puller, but no more. If the higher ranked puller wins, he gets the money but no points. Maybe we can come up with some cool awards to give to the highest ranked puller at the end of each year? This system would heavily favor certain geographic areas. California for example has about half of the ranked 80kg guys. They will run into each other at just about every tournament. Guys like John Parton have to spend a lot more money to have a chance to stay in the rankings. sounds like a good theory but as you said some have a huge advantage just because of where they live, probably why Vazgen suggested no points for small events but then what we have is a points race and not a rankings system, would be fun to try but again the road warriars will be the ones on top when its all said and done |
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Post by Eric Roussin on Sept 16, 2011 9:59:06 GMT -5
In a rankings discussion, I think an important question to ask is what to do you want the rankings to reflect? When I do the Canadian rankings on In the Hook (and when I used to do the US rankings as well), what I want to achieve is a ranked list of who would be most likely to win the class if all pullers showed up for a huge money event in the near future. I know when rankings originally appeared on PinArm over 10 years ago this was also the intention. My rankings do not account for activity, with the exception that pullers must compete somewhere at least once within the past 12 months to be considered.
Point based rankings systems work well for some sports, especially sports where activity is similar for the majority of the athletes who compete. In golf, professional golfers are on tour and most of the top athletes compete in 40-50 tournaments a year – this happens because all of the golfers make some money at all of the events. This allows point systems to provide rankings that are much more reflective of the current best athletes. In armwrestling there are top pullers who compete once or twice a year, and others who compete more than a dozen times per year. Because of the lack of money in the sport, there is less to prompt top athletes to compete on a regular basis. In most point systems, a top puller who competes more often will earn more points than a top puller who competes less often, although the first puller may not necessarily be better than the second puller. It really depends on what you want the rankings to reflect. Because of what I want my rankings to be, I don’t yet see how a point system will work.
I do agree with Bob that the ArmTV system is getting better. If all events were filmed and all matches were tagged, this would obviously improve the rankings. They would just need to build something in to limit the impact of old match results and eliminate inactive pullers from the rankings.
I think the reason that few other point systems have been developed is the enormity of the task – developing the computer program, getting all tournament directors on board, and keeping on top of everything. “x” factors would also be difficult to account for (draws, etc.). Also, assigning point values to different events would be difficult. There are a few big annual events, but how many events come and go? Ever notice how many “1st Annual” events never come back for a second year?
In terms of using a panel of armwrestlers to determine rankings, I see two main problems: 1) updates would likely take a while to do, as it would take time to obtain rankings from 20+ different people and organizing them – not everyone is as responsive as everyone else, and 2) not everyone is coming to the table with the same level of knowledge, and equal weight may be given to both more-informed opinions and less-informed opinions.
I think the best rankings will be continued to be developed by passionate individuals with good analytical skills who strive to keep up to date on tournament results. Rankings maintained by people like me, Josh, and Engin will never be perfect, but I think they are the best that are currently available and they should continue to be done until a better system can be developed.
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Post by TK on Sept 16, 2011 19:10:44 GMT -5
I didn't agree with it at first, but plain and simple who beat who simplifies it.....points in this sport will never work as excuses will always be available ..... If you have an off day and lose... Then you lost your spot....
Makes keeping up with it better too.
JMO
TK
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Post by David Owens on Sept 16, 2011 19:19:55 GMT -5
I didn't agree with it at first, but plain and simple who beat who simplifies it.....points in this sport will never work as excuses will always be available ..... If you have an off day and lose... Then you lost your spot.... Makes keeping up with it better too. JMO TK Stop forcing me to agree with you  ;D jk I also say throw out the ,I pulled the day before, I was tired, I was sick, my dog ate my lunch so on and so forth and be responsible for yourself when you put your arm on the table |
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Post by Vazgen Soghoyan on Sept 17, 2011 2:07:42 GMT -5
Have every event videoed and sent to ArmTV. Have every matched tagged. The rankings will be done. The more data entered into a system will show better and better rankings. Just look at the ArmTV rankings now. They are getting better. They just need more data. I agree but not sure this will ever happen, many people you tube the videos and many people are not members of arm tv I was in a Tournament in Tonopah, NV. Pretty cool event. Arm TV was not there, nobody filmed fo Arm TV. But a tounament results at least can be posted on board so the Author can insert into the programm. Today Arm TV's ranking has a weak place; no video-no tagg-to points. |
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Post by Vazgen Soghoyan on Sept 17, 2011 2:17:48 GMT -5
Eric's point that what to do you want the rankings to reflect is is also makes sense I think. And it seems Josh continues your princip of making the rankings " who would be most likely to win the class if all pullers showed up for a huge money event in the near future". But what Armwrestlers think reading the list? Probably, the read and see " who is the strongest" . These two things sometimes are same, sometimes are different. Terms and conditions need to be corrected also.
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