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Post by Jacob Hale on Feb 2, 2012 18:21:56 GMT -5
In my opinion it seems that false starting is way more advantageous to a puller, then dropping ones elbow off the pad accidentally or momentarily. Why then is false starting merely a warning and an accidental elbow pop a full foul?
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 2, 2012 19:00:33 GMT -5
Question of the century. False starts are way more advantageous. Not even close in my opinion.
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Post by Karen Bean on Feb 2, 2012 19:31:19 GMT -5
Neither one the way you have your question worded. You're saying a false start is a warning - which it is unless you're in a referee's grip and an elbow off the pad is a foul - which it is.
Either one, the warning or the foul, the match stops and restarts so no advantage either way.
My answer is based solely on the way your question is asked - comparing the calls that are made for the infraction.
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Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on Feb 2, 2012 19:37:52 GMT -5
Tell that to a defensive puller and he will STRONGLY disagree
WAY more matches are cut short and won by elbow fouls alone...... That is a FACT
Advantage has nothing to do with it, that could be said about angles, big hands, styles.... Straps.... Blah blah
Fact is elbow fouls end more matches and send more people home than false starts.... It's an epidemic in this sport.
It makes this sport spectator boring and there is less and less actual pulling.
And IMHO elbow fouls make lots of wins ...
Look at almost every arsen match.... I think Matuyshenko had him toasted had he not gone 2" off the pad everytime
People who are relatively close can get screwed by that " momentary" elbow pop or movement....it adds leverage and power or even room to run in a match where a puller is locked in and has run out of all three.... Food for thought
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 2, 2012 19:52:22 GMT -5
I think were looking at opposite sides of the coin.
False starts are almost never called. The person on the receiving end loses unfairly.
Elbow fouls are the bane of the sport, but for the opposite reason. It is way too easy to lose a WAF match due to elbow "fouls" where the ref would have to work hard to shove a piece of paper into the air gap.
Elbow foul related losses and restarts are the biggest problem in the sport.
But I took Jacobs question to be which kind of foul has the most impact on a match- a false start or one single elbow foul. To me, the false start does because 99% of the time a false start does not draw a foul. False starting gets written off as a quick hit and the opponent takes a crappy loss because of it.
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Post by Karen Bean on Feb 2, 2012 19:56:48 GMT -5
I think were looking at opposite sides of the coin. False starts are almost never called. The person on the receiving end loses unfairly. Elbow fouls are the bane of the sport, but for the opposite reason. It is way too easy to lose a WAF match due to elbow "fouls" where the ref would have to work hard to shove a piece of paper into the air gap. Elbow foul related losses and restarts are the biggest problem in the sport. But I took Jacobs question to be which kind of foul has the most impact on a match- a false start or one single elbow foul. To me, the false start does because 99% of the time a false start does not draw a foul. False starting gets written off as a quick hit and the opponent takes a crappy loss because of it. I agree with you John basing the question on which infraction can have the biggest impact, the false start would be. I tell ya what - I watched some videos on ArmTV today and even in a replay I couldn't see how an elbow foul was called even though the camera was actually focused right on the elbow. Those infamous phantom fouls! |
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Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on Feb 2, 2012 19:58:59 GMT -5
Like I said I guess it depends on style...
If you false start on a stronger guy than you that is solid..... It wont really matter
Just like guys who don't hit... No different than a false start really
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Post by Jacob Hale on Feb 2, 2012 19:59:01 GMT -5
^^^^ EXACTLY John Wilson
The thrust of my question has to do with the fact that false starts are way more unfair to their victims (if they arent called) than an elbow pop, BUT the tiniest elbow fouls are treated by the rules so more severely. It just doesn't make sense to me.
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 2, 2012 20:02:26 GMT -5
Agreed Karen. Obviously it goes both ways. I took a seriously horrible loss at Worlds in Poland when the Latvian dragged his elbow 6 inches off the back of the pad but he got the win. All too often the refs are watching the match instead of the elbows.
Reffing is very hard to do well. I think we need to engineer the table in a way that makes the sport much less dependant on the ref being perfect.
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Post by Patrick Wood on Feb 3, 2012 15:24:31 GMT -5
Can the design of the elbow pad be changed to reduce elbow fouls? What if the elbow pad was designed more like a bowl with the rim much more "solid" than the inner part where the elbow is sliding around when pullers are trying to gain different positioning. Could that help to stop the elbow from sliding off the sides, front/back of the pad? A puller would have to lift his entire arm to get it over the lip of the pad......?
If the lip of the bowl is effective, but deemed to be too tall, could the table then be built slightly higher with a recess in it to place the bowl shaped elbow pad in, and the pin pad/lines slightly lowered? The hand pegs would then be slightly higher than reg.
If a more solid rim is in the way of the final tiniest distance stopping the arm from being pinned, perhaps a softer rim can be used. One that does not prevent the arm from compressing it, yet still stops the elbow from sliding out of the pocket?
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Post by John Milne on Feb 3, 2012 17:56:04 GMT -5
John, it boils down to proper referee training.
WAY too many times referees "watch the match" and miss the fouls. I got news for all you refs - JACK crap is going to happen in the hands (where you will see a huge percentage of refs watching) INSTEAD of watching the elbow pads.
Watch any video, take a look at most any photograph you will see proof of this. Ref's do not need to watch hands but they get caught up in it. I've been noticing this for a long time actually.
Let me pose this question. What is more important? An elbow foul or trying to decide who forced the slip? A huge percent of slips go to staps anyway, therefore it's not really crucial to fixate up top.
Referee training my friend.
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 5, 2012 16:40:09 GMT -5
Yep.
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Post by Robert Miller on Feb 6, 2012 19:58:27 GMT -5
Can the design of the elbow pad be changed to reduce elbow fouls? What if the elbow pad was designed more like a bowl with the rim much more "solid" than the inner part where the elbow is sliding around when pullers are trying to gain different positioning. Could that help to stop the elbow from sliding off the sides, front/back of the pad? A puller would have to lift his entire arm to get it over the lip of the pad......? If the lip of the bowl is effective, but deemed to be too tall, could the table then be built slightly higher with a recess in it to place the bowl shaped elbow pad in, and the pin pad/lines slightly lowered? The hand pegs would then be slightly higher than reg. If a more solid rim is in the way of the final tiniest distance stopping the arm from being pinned, perhaps a softer rim can be used. One that does not prevent the arm from compressing it, yet still stops the elbow from sliding out of the pocket? Good question Pat... I know back in the day way before my time they're were tables w/ a elbow pads similar to what yer describing... They had a small rim around the pad. why did we get away from them? Any old-school guys know why?? |
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 6, 2012 20:01:41 GMT -5
Leonard Harkliss has been pushing for a return to donuts for a long time. He'd be the man to ask.
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Post by Mike West on Feb 6, 2012 20:14:45 GMT -5
I started this sport pulling on donut elbow pads, you can still elbow foul in a donut, but then the ref can't see it, so are you trying to stop elbow fouls from happening or being called?
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