Rule Clarification - Slip or Win? USAW/WAF

[John Byerley]

Hey all,

Recovering from Europa. Was a blast.

Just wondering about the match I had below.

Under USAW/WAF - is ANY slip considering a restart in straps?

This match was called a slip, went on to lose in a 20-30 second hook match - and went 0-2 in pros. I need to work on technique in the straps for sure.

The main reason I ask this is not to beat anyone up or because I'm upset. I saw this same call many times throughout the day and wondering if its the correct call as per organization.

I definitely DON'T like it either way ;D

Also, anything I need to do to avoid the slip? Grip tighter?

[John Milne]

Not any slip goes to straps

If someone is deemed to have caused the slip - he/she should be called as a foul

If this foul is in the losing position the match should be awarded to their opponent

[Bull Dog Madore]

John that match was yours brother! Ref error for sure. Hope I didn't Piss the down ref off by saying that but that was clearly a losing position.

[Jeff Janes]

Not only did he clearly slip in a losing position, it appeared to be a pin.

[John Milne]

Hard to tell from that angle but it looked like it could have even been a pin straight up.

I would not have called that straps. For the record, I'm a lvl 3 ref.

What level ref is the downside? Where is his ref's shirt? A ref can't compete in an event he's reffing either. Just saying.

[John Milne]

Slip in a losing position is NOT a foul.

Intentional slip in a losing position is.

[Glenn Brooks]

We all have been shafted a time or two. That's one for you John.

[Johnny Ordonne]

John,

You were robbed buddy, that was a win...period!

[David Owens]

Very fast but since you put it in slow mo and is easier to call than real time, it is an intentional slip (in losing position depending on camera angle) because the hand and fingers begin to turn in a clockwise motion(bailing) underneath the wrist/forearm

That is Chris Chandler reffing and keep in mind that this is much harder to call in real time, and if Chris eyes were where they should be at the start of match ( on elbows) then for that split second I can see why he could miss that call

John
Under who's rules does it say you cannot ref in an event as well as compete? Most orgs here in the US will let you pull and ref outside of your class, and many refs are not USAF tested refs, just armwrestlers at the events

[Corey "FLASH" Miller]

im going to say that this looks like a slip in the middle of the table, which is neither win for either person. which in turn woul be a strap, but this all angle based n its hard to tell

[Tim Lewis]

Aug 21, 2012 20:05:31 GMT -5 John Milne said:

Slip in a losing position is NOT a foul.

Intentional slip in a losing position is.

Slip in a losing position IS a loss in AAA but not in USAA/WAF

in WAF/USAA an intentional slip is a foul
and a foul in a losing position is a loss hence
an intentional slip in a losing position is a loss


intentional slip ---> one of 3 things must happen
Competitor that slips either:
1) makes a fist and is fisted while slipping
2) loses finger contact with all 4 fingers and slips while there is no contact
3) downward rotation bailout

if the ref does not clearly see once if these things happen then it is just a slip and strap it doesn't matter if you are one inch from losing its still a strap.

[Tim Lewis]

just watched it

it was very clear than #1 and #2 did not happen

there is no evidence of #3 either even in slow motion.

def the correct call to go to strap

in AAA you probably get the win for that

[Leonard Harkless]

Aug 21, 2012 19:42:55 GMT -5 John Byerley said:

Hey all,

Recovering from Europa. Was a blast.

Just wondering about the match I had below.

Under USAW/WAF - is ANY slip considering a restart in straps?

This match was called a slip, went on to lose in a 20-30 second hook match - and went 0-2 in pros. I need to work on technique in the straps for sure.

The main reason I ask this is not to beat anyone up or because I'm upset. I saw this same call many times throughout the day and wondering if its the correct call as per organization.

I definitely DON'T like it either way ;D

Also, anything I need to do to avoid the slip? Grip tighter?

Here is the actual rule.

The referee will call one foul for “causing a slip out” when:
8.4.1 You lift your fingers off your opponent’s hand prior to a slippage
8.4.2 You close your fingers as to make a fist inside your opponent’s hand
8.4.3 You’re in break wrist position and you pull your fingers inside your opponents hand, therefore you
are unable to hold your grip.
8.5 Straps
8.5.1 Straps will be used when any match ends by way of a slip-out not resulting in a foul. A slip-out
occurs when both competitors have lost complete contact with one another. The official must be
certain of the circumstances preceding the actual slip out before calling a foul. If the official is
uncertain as to who caused the slippage or itwas caused by the actions of both competitors, then
straps will be used and no foul will be given.

[Leonard Harkless]

Aug 21, 2012 20:04:13 GMT -5 Jeff Janes said:

Not only did he clearly slip in a losing position, it appeared to be a pin.

Wrong rules for WAF and USAA. There is no such rule, only intentional slip in the losing position. I have already posted what an intentional slip is and that was not it.

[Leonard Harkless]

Aug 21, 2012 20:04:14 GMT -5 John Milne said:

Hard to tell from that angle but it looked like it could have even been a pin straight up.

I would not have called that straps. For the record, I'm a lvl 3 ref.

What level ref is the downside? Where is his ref's shirt? A ref can't compete in an event he's reffing either. Just saying.

That is the problem with video, you all are watching it from a camera shooting uphill. There is no one closer than the downside referee who is in perfect position to call a parallel pin.
John you should have Rick explain to you exactly why the correct call was made.