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Post by Robert Miller on Aug 26, 2012 9:08:19 GMT -5
Good points David & Mike. It appeared he was pushing with his shoulder to some degree but again hIs hand got outside his shoulder rather quickly while he was trying to hit... And to yer point David he's a novice & was jus working on moves & trying to learn... he was even pulling against a very experienced guy in Bucky Russell & he still got hurt... what are you gonna do?? It happens & it's part of the game... I think we Really have to watch the novices guys... weather in practice or tourney! They can get in bad positions so quick & at times have plenty of strength but not the tendon & bone strength to go with it. Jus my .02!
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Post by David Owens on Aug 26, 2012 12:10:25 GMT -5
Good luck, hope it works out. For the millionth time.....yes, most breaks r in bad positions, BUT there r exceptions to the rule....YES, u can be squared to the table, in a winning position ( I was and topping too, hi, Mr. Snook..lol), pinning someone ( seen it at Jason vales house, he was a Reporter), NOT in a breakarm position, not hand behind you, pulling up from a losing position ( like what happened at the 98 AAAs), I think you get the pt.. Side pressure IS a natural motion for ur arm....,Dave, I am surprised at u for that one... If they were in winning position then they probably did what most do win they are top rolling and can't pin someone (myself included-see my match with my dad for example) which is to transfer the pressure from a pull to push and try to finish with a shoulder press from a top roll position Side pressure is a natural motion? Ok.......if you mean that you can naturally take your arm from a starting to a pinning position without moving anything else then I guess youre right but.........lets all do a little experiment Put yourself in a starting position, now without turning your shoulders or moving your body in any way go strait sideways and pin yourself, my arm stops in a bill sinks position about hallways to the pad, to get pinned we have to get pulled backwards and have our bicept opened up, if you are being honest with yourself then your arm probably stops about half way....keep going and you will start to feel that twisting pressure at your humorous, even in winning or neutral position we do this to our selves and call it side pressure and as you can see this is not natural for your arm because your arm will not open this direction
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Post by Rick Laton on Aug 26, 2012 15:05:12 GMT -5
Just got off the phone with Kirt. He said they put him in a soft cast and he's going back at the end of next week and they will re-X-Ray it. It was a spiral fracture. They are hoping it will heal up without surgery but they want the swelling to go down and look at it again.
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Post by Robert Miller on Aug 26, 2012 20:53:03 GMT -5
Good to hear Rick! God's speed my brother!!
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Post by John Wilson on Aug 26, 2012 21:44:41 GMT -5
Hand outside of the shoulder is bad, but it's not so much the position (square or not), it's where you are applying the pressure. You can be square to your arm, but start pushing with your shoulder and it can snap before your hand gets outside of your shoulder. Agree 100% And the farther your elbow is from your rib cage the less pressure you need to apply before the arm snaps. I used to think it was about having your hand past your shoulder. Sure, that's never good, but now I am a firm believer that it's about driving with your shoulder instead of leading with your hand. I've seen one or two breaks from an obvious 'bad position' but all the rest happened before anyone had a chance to make a peep. People hear the SNAP about the time the person's limp forearm swings back past their shoulder, even though the break has already happened.
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Post by Mike West on Aug 26, 2012 21:45:44 GMT -5
Rick, did they set it? Would be great if it doesn't need surgery.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Aug 27, 2012 8:34:05 GMT -5
Good luck, hope it works out. For the millionth time.....yes, most breaks r in bad positions, BUT there r exceptions to the rule....YES, u can be squared to the table, in a winning position ( I was and topping too, hi, Mr. Snook..lol), pinning someone ( seen it at Jason vales house, he was a Reporter), NOT in a breakarm position, not hand behind you, pulling up from a losing position ( like what happened at the 98 AAAs), I think you get the pt.. Side pressure IS a natural motion for ur arm....,Dave, I am surprised at u for that one... If they were in winning position then they probably did what most do win they are top rolling and can't pin someone (myself included-see my match with my dad for example) which is to transfer the pressure from a pull to push and try to finish with a shoulder press from a top roll position Side pressure is a natural motion? Ok.......if you mean that you can naturally take your arm from a starting to a pinning position without moving anything else then I guess youre right but.........lets all do a little experiment Put yourself in a starting position, now without turning your shoulders or moving your body in any way go strait sideways and pin yourself, my arm stops in a bill sinks position about hallways to the pad, to get pinned we have to get pulled backwards and have our bicept opened up, if you are being honest with yourself then your arm probably stops about half way....keep going and you will start to feel that twisting pressure at your humorous, even in winning or neutral position we do this to our selves and call it side pressure and as you can see this is not natural for your arm because your arm will not open this direction I am having trouble understanding the above...Maybe I also might've misundwerstood the first one. However, if you are at the table and gripped up, AND r strong ENOUGH, you don't ever have to move your arm...ITs all torso flexion...Some of those muscles are the spinaes, rectus abdominus, internal and external obliques, and others.... Or if you r STRONG enough, you can just stand there and internally rotate ur humerus..... Funny thing about that..I was in my Drs office and imitated that move. and first thing he said was, " Oh you need to work your obliques. i first thought about saying no, util i though about it and he was right. Of course as in anything else in this "sport"...MOST other muscles have to be just as strong to do that... OH, one more thing..Travis did say ONE thing SMART, after all his BS pulling up to 05....I am paraphasing.."shortest way to pin someone is 8 inches, and thats sideways."
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Post by Rick Laton on Aug 27, 2012 8:48:30 GMT -5
Rick, did they set it? Would be great if it doesn't need surgery. I THINK so. If I understood right they set it and if he comes back in 4-5 days and it's appears to be healing correctly they will leave it alone and if not they will do the surgery and reset it with the bolts and hardware. I THINK.
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Post by David Owens on Aug 27, 2012 10:47:17 GMT -5
If they were in winning position then they probably did what most do win they are top rolling and can't pin someone (myself included-see my match with my dad for example) which is to transfer the pressure from a pull to push and try to finish with a shoulder press from a top roll position Side pressure is a natural motion? Ok.......if you mean that you can naturally take your arm from a starting to a pinning position without moving anything else then I guess youre right but.........lets all do a little experiment Put yourself in a starting position, now without turning your shoulders or moving your body in any way go strait sideways and pin yourself, my arm stops in a bill sinks position about hallways to the pad, to get pinned we have to get pulled backwards and have our bicept opened up, if you are being honest with yourself then your arm probably stops about half way....keep going and you will start to feel that twisting pressure at your humorous, even in winning or neutral position we do this to our selves and call it side pressure and as you can see this is not natural for your arm because your arm will not open this direction I am having trouble understanding the above...Maybe I also might've misundwerstood the first one. However, if you are at the table and gripped up, AND r strong ENOUGH, you don't ever have to move your arm...ITs all torso flexion...Some of those muscles are the spinaes, rectus abdominus, internal and external obliques, and others.... Or if you r STRONG enough, you can just stand there and internally rotate ur humerus..... Funny thing about that..I was in my Drs office and imitated that move. and first thing he said was, " Oh you need to work your obliques. i first thought about saying no, util i though about it and he was right. Of course as in anything else in this "sport"...MOST other muscles have to be just as strong to do that... OH, one more thing..Travis did say ONE thing SMART, after all his BS pulling up to 05....I am paraphasing.."shortest way to pin someone is 8 inches, and thats sideways." I completely agree with the last line about side pressure, I never said that not going sideways was gonna get you many wins, at some point you have to go sideways but for newbies I thing less is more jmo I understand that we as armwrestlers have been train to use our body as one solid machine and yes going sideways for us is bending at the waist and keeping our lock, but it you go strait sideways and someone stops you in the center and your body keeps going but your arm does not (or goes backward) then pretty soon your hand I outside of your shoulder and you are in a bad position because your arm does not natural open up that direction for you to be pinned Maybe a better way to get my point accross If arm wrestling was really arm wrestling and your waist was strapped to the side of the table elbow strapped to the top of the pad, both even in the middle (not offset) and the only motion possible was to rotate at the elbow (sideways) would anyone be able to be pinned? I know I wouldnt, not without breaking my arm to me that means going that direction is not natural to your bones, is there any other lifts that put that much torque on a bone? I don't know of any......is that why most body builders and strongman are afraid to Armwrestle, because pushing sideways feels like the natural thing to do but as our arms are concerned its not. Jmo Something has to give the way we train people has to change or getting all these new people into the sport is just going to bring more and more negative light on it, the risk will always be there but I think we need to make them as educated about how to pull as we possibly can
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Post by Jeff Janes on Aug 27, 2012 11:27:28 GMT -5
I would say that the risk of breaking an arm is too great for most. Even extreme athletes don't have a 1/100 chance of breaking an arm or a leg. Look at MMA, there are more arm breaks that I know of in arm wrestling than MMA. You may have one or two bone breaks a year and MMA is a much larger and followed sport. I have seen 3 breaks, one being my own and I have only been in the sport for 1 year. I have been to about a dozen tournaments so I have a 25% chance of seeing an arm break. My wife has only been to a few tournaments and has seen two arm breaks. If this sport were to take off then it would just bring up the fact that people get injured very often and if we want to get to the next level we have to have people that are relentless about safety and calling fouls in bad positions. Heck, at AAA nationals not one novice was fouled for an arm break position until the guy broke his arm and he was sitting in a bad position for a long time. I turned away knowing what was about to happen as my team mate was yelling "Arm Break Position". Funny thing is they fouled a few pros for getting in a bad position toward the end of the competition after the break. IMO you should have a pre tournament safety meeting and some sort of qualifier that shows you understand the basics well enough to stay out of the typical arm break position.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Aug 27, 2012 11:56:46 GMT -5
I am having trouble understanding the above...Maybe I also might've misundwerstood the first one. However, if you are at the table and gripped up, AND r strong ENOUGH, you don't ever have to move your arm...ITs all torso flexion...Some of those muscles are the spinaes, rectus abdominus, internal and external obliques, and others.... Or if you r STRONG enough, you can just stand there and internally rotate ur humerus..... Funny thing about that..I was in my Drs office and imitated that move. and first thing he said was, " Oh you need to work your obliques. i first thought about saying no, util i though about it and he was right. Of course as in anything else in this "sport"...MOST other muscles have to be just as strong to do that... OH, one more thing..Travis did say ONE thing SMART, after all his BS pulling up to 05....I am paraphasing.."shortest way to pin someone is 8 inches, and thats sideways." I completely agree with the last line about side pressure, I never said that not going sideways was gonna get you many wins, at some point you have to go sideways but for newbies I thing less is more jmo I understand that we as armwrestlers have been train to use our body as one solid machine and yes going sideways for us is bending at the waist and keeping our lock, but it you go strait sideways and someone stops you in the center and your body keeps going but your arm does not (or goes backward) then pretty soon your hand I outside of your shoulder and you are in a bad position because your arm does not natural open up that direction for you to be pinned Maybe a better way to get my point accross If arm wrestling was really arm wrestling and your waist was strapped to the side of the table elbow strapped to the top of the pad, both even in the middle (not offset) and the only motion possible was to rotate at the elbow (sideways) would anyone be able to be pinned? I know I wouldnt, not without breaking my arm to me that means going that direction is not natural to your bones, is there any other lifts that put that much torque on a bone? I don't know of any......is that why most body builders and strongman are afraid to Armwrestle, because pushing sideways feels like the natural thing to do but as our arms are concerned its not. Jmo Something has to give the way we train people has to change or getting all these new people into the sport is just going to bring more and more negative light on it, the risk will always be there but I think we need to make them as educated about how to pull as we possibly can GOTCHA
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Post by Robert Bishop on Aug 27, 2012 22:14:15 GMT -5
If they were in winning position then they probably did what most do win they are top rolling and can't pin someone (myself included-see my match with my dad for example) which is to transfer the pressure from a pull to push and try to finish with a shoulder press from a top roll position Side pressure is a natural motion? Ok.......if you mean that you can naturally take your arm from a starting to a pinning position without moving anything else then I guess youre right but.........lets all do a little experiment Put yourself in a starting position, now without turning your shoulders or moving your body in any way go strait sideways and pin yourself, my arm stops in a bill sinks position about hallways to the pad, to get pinned we have to get pulled backwards and have our bicept opened up, if you are being honest with yourself then your arm probably stops about half way....keep going and you will start to feel that twisting pressure at your humorous, even in winning or neutral position we do this to our selves and call it side pressure and as you can see this is not natural for your arm because your arm will not open this direction I am having trouble understanding the above...Maybe I also might've misundwerstood the first one. However, if you are at the table and gripped up, AND r strong ENOUGH, you don't ever have to move your arm...ITs all torso flexion...Some of those muscles are the spinaes, rectus abdominus, internal and external obliques, and others.... Or if you r STRONG enough, you can just stand there and internally rotate ur humerus..... Funny thing about that..I was in my Drs office and imitated that move. and first thing he said was, " Oh you need to work your obliques. i first thought about saying no, util i though about it and he was right. Of course as in anything else in this "sport"...MOST other muscles have to be just as strong to do that... OH, one more thing..Travis did say ONE thing SMART, after all his BS pulling up to 05....I am paraphasing.."shortest way to pin someone is 8 inches, and thats sideways." Christian you are still the only guy i have ever heard of ripping something in your knee while armwrestling unless i heard that wrong that you injured your knee at the harley pull a couple years back but i did get hurt one time trying to tighten the strap in a match that was not even mine. The strap broke and i jamed my hand into the table ;D
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Aug 28, 2012 13:09:18 GMT -5
I am having trouble understanding the above...Maybe I also might've misundwerstood the first one. However, if you are at the table and gripped up, AND r strong ENOUGH, you don't ever have to move your arm...ITs all torso flexion...Some of those muscles are the spinaes, rectus abdominus, internal and external obliques, and others.... Or if you r STRONG enough, you can just stand there and internally rotate ur humerus..... Funny thing about that..I was in my Drs office and imitated that move. and first thing he said was, " Oh you need to work your obliques. i first thought about saying no, util i though about it and he was right. Of course as in anything else in this "sport"...MOST other muscles have to be just as strong to do that... OH, one more thing..Travis did say ONE thing SMART, after all his BS pulling up to 05....I am paraphasing.."shortest way to pin someone is 8 inches, and thats sideways." Christian you are still the only guy i have ever heard of ripping something in your knee while armwrestling unless i heard that wrong that you injured your knee at the harley pull a couple years back but i did get hurt one time trying to tighten the strap in a match that was not even mine. The strap broke and i jamed my hand into the table ;D What was happening was, due to compression in my spine on the saphenous nerves in my legs, it was making my right leg collapse. I assumed it was coming from the knee, since I had 6 on the left and 1 already on the right. So it was really coming from my back
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Post by Rick Laton on Sept 11, 2012 20:29:44 GMT -5
Update. First off, no surgery. Looks like it is healing on it's own. Second, the guy is CRAZY!! He was at practice on Saturday pulling left handed. He is also training his left hand like a mad man. I don't think he's going to have a problem coming back mentally. He's ready to go right now!!
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Post by Robert Miller on Sept 12, 2012 20:29:33 GMT -5
Good to hear Rick... tell him we're all behind him & wishing for a speedy recovery!!
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