Las Botha

[jamesretarides]

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[Las Botha]

Hi James.

Thank you for your effort, I am already indebted to you.
I will begin at once in assimilating some of your principles and exercises into my routine.

I've seen you do some interesting exercises for pronation.
One I would like to share takes a leaflet out of Devon Larratt's book on the use of a standard bath towel as a helpful tool for developing "functional¡" strength in hard-to-reach spots.

After some experimentation, I started to use a towel tethered to a cable-pulley machine with my hand elevated above my head by clamping the towel under my curled thumb.
Then keeping my palm flat, the towel is draped over my four fingers pinched together where the pressure is applied.
My fingers are curled slightly over a +-120 degree angle with my palm. Then I try to maintain full radial deviation on the wrist first (knuckles high up) and follow by doing a wrist curl as far as possible with this "knuckles high" position.
It is a much more limited range of motion than a standard wrist curl, of course, and the challenge is to not bow your wrist.
At the end of my curling motion I keep the postion locked up and bring my hand down to my opposite shoulder or chest.

This has targeted my pronator muscle more efficiently than anything else I have tried so far- a variant on the standard top-rolling exercise I suppose, for what it's worth.
Forgive me if I'm attempting to re-invent the wheel here.

Thank you for your time.

[Las Botha]

Please allow me to indulge for a moment:

One interesting thing that I noted is that you have mentioned that "crushing…strength (is) very important to armwrestling". You've taught how you set up on the table and do grippers, and have used plate-loaded machines and pinch/flat finger training too.

I've given this a lot of thought recently.

Devon Larratt, in two of his videos, claimed that he considers grippers to not be a "balanced strength in armwrestling… that doesn't really mimic what happens on the table so much" which finds no place in his armwrestling workouts, but that he only does it in cross training doing many reps, light and fast…
certainly not the static holds and 1RM work that we see many others do with these tools.

Furthermore, when questioned on grip and finger strength, Larratt mentioned that as a younger, less experienced puller he used to train grip separately from the rest of the system, as he put it (i.e. pinchgrip, plate lifting/curls, grippers).

He found that he'd improve his crushing strength yet be unable to efficiently manipulate his opponents in the way that he wanted to, thus leading him to conclude that this type of training is "mildly beneficial" but that it doesn’t "translate well" to the table.
Instead he advocates incorporating hand, wrist and arm strength altogether as a package, for example using a rolling thunder, and thick spinning bar deadlifts and pullups.

His stance on grippers etc. is still confusing to me; I am a steadfast believer in isolating components of a system as far as possible for strength training from previous experience, but I'm still learning in this sport.
It would seem to me that static holds and 1RM-type work on gripper-type equipment would be greatly beneficial in directing pressures and the opponent’s hand position deeper into your own palm if and when desired.

I have considered that perhaps if you reach a level of advancement such as Larratt has surpassed, you may no longer find much use for those exercises mentioned (whether they may have been crucial or not to your development up until that point), and your table time and cupping exercises at a high level of intensity that elite pullers are capable of maintaining will suffice in this area.

Travis Bagent has mentioned that Devon's grip strength is the strongest he has felt, similar to that of Richard Lupkes, but this could perhaps be attributed mostly to those cupping exercises that Larratt does and not grippers etc.

One of the main differences between these seem to be the curling in of the finger tips (as with gripper-type work mostly) and utilizing the certain muscles and connective tissue slightly differently.
It does feel as though there is a greater strain to the tendons and wrapping ligaments over the top and bottom of the wrist and overall less flexion when locked in just straight cupping, even taking goose-necked gripper work into consideration.
I would say that a gripping movement shifts the strength requirement lower down on your fingers and in some ways neglects the wrist, inner wrist mostly.

Thus far, following Larratt's advice, I’ve only used light grippers to pump blood down my arms on a weekly basis. I may be missing out, I don't know.
I have built a pullup "doorgym" bar with thick cylinders that revolve on wheelbearings at different angles.
This I train with various grips (normal, reverse, neutral, close, wide) and is something that I feel that grippers cannot adequately prepare me for, even if I were to train grippers in a "goose-necked" wrist which I do anyway.


I've been meaning to ask Eric Rousin his views on the matter and whether he believes that his gripper-type training has benefitted his armwrestling since he also does grip sport and he has probably discussed this with Larratt.
It seems to me as though Larratt could even do without these type of exercises altogether.
Different schools of thought perhaps.

Armwrestling training can be quite time-consuming as the human upper limb we are developing is most probably the most dexterous and intricate limb/manipulator in all the animal kingdom.
I would think that any level of armwrestler would interested in the final say for the purpose of streamlining his or her routine in order to save time and improve results.

[Mike Giannelli]

Las,

I use the CoC #1 and#2 grippers and there is benefit. Grip them with your forearm and knuckles straight up. Bend your wrist downto a 90 degree angle and crush the grippers. Its very difficult. I do reps and holds. You'll notice a difference when gripping up on the table with your opponent.

Towel wrist curls are great. I should be doing them rountinely myself, but I use a rolling thunder or thick handle on a pulley, turn a bit to the side and apply some side pressure and wrist curl down with knuckles high. I vary the weight. Heavy static holds and lighter weight for speed reps. I never let my wrist bend back. My gains have been awesome on the table.

[jamesretarides]

Not reinventing the wheel at all Las. I have done that exercise as well. Also, the first person I heard of using a towel to train was not Devon, it was Benji Dwyer, a national champion armwrestler from NY. I might agree with Devon to an extent about grippers. However, I will say that heavy grippers (and pinch exercises) will thicken your hands (specifically your thumb adductor muscle). A thick hand is an uncomfortable hand to grip on the table.

Also where I started from in this sport was a not exceptionally strong, slow novice with very weak hands and wrists. While my wrist development seemed to advance quickly, I did not start to develop what I would consider strong, thick hands until I started using grippers. While the exercises I did to develop flat finger pressure and cupping strength on the table seemed to help in a more sports specific manner, I saw grippers and working extensors as a means of holistic training, developing more overall strength and dexterity in my hands.

I thought about it sort of like an athlete. A sprinter still needs a strong and explosive upper body and core even though they appear to use only their legs when they race. To me hands were kind of a microcosm of this rule. Also, from my own experience, I can say for certain that I have more hand control and a more intimidating grip when I am using heavy grippers. I have taken breaks from grippers enough times over the past 14 years to realize this is not a coincidence.

I also used to do negatives with heavy grippers but found I was getting a lot of pain in the bottom of my wrist along my pinky finger as a result. This pain often lasted for weeks and seemed to set me back more than help. However, if you can do it without pain, by all means do so. I would also add that turning a gripper upside down and working your bottom two fingers will help you develop the strength necessary to shut down a posting toproll. Again, I have experimented a lot with exercises over the years so I am pretty certain of this. I hope you enjoy the read Las and give the exercises a chance. They will be of benefit.

[Las Botha]

Hi James,

I do agree.
To my mind there is not much chance that an armwrestler will not gain some kind of advantage doing these exercises.
I would be interested to hear what an armwrestler like Eric Roussin thinks about this- one that does grip sport in conjunction with armwrestling.

After giving it a lot of thought though, James, I see this issue as being about finding a scientific way to intergrate these grip exercises into your busy training-; rest-; rehab- and prepping schedules (almost) at the expense of doing other more arwrestling-specific exercises that could possibly yield greater gains on the table in the long run to armwrestlers of all styles and builds in general.

Larratt’s hand is relatively slender if you consider the Cyplenkovs, the Bresnans, the Pushkars etc. of the armwrestling superheavy elites.
Gaining slight hand thickness is perhaps a neglegibly small advantage proportionate to time invested for certain types of pullers.

I suspect that these grip exercises at a high intensity (1RM, negatives, holds) would perhaps be of most help to armwrestlers who have yet to reach a certain threshold where the particular strength that these exercises provide them has not yet been adequately developed so as to be continually and sufficiently sustained by high intensity work in other areas and types of exercises in the absence of high-intensity grip work, eventually- which is perhaps only part of what Larratt was trying to saying.

There is obviously a genetic limit to its development and also its usefulness on the table (unless you grew up on a walnut farm like Cyplenkov), thus there may be a sort of transition threshold where you would gradually find fewer and fewer positive returns on your time, energy and wear and tear invested in grip exercises at a very high level of armwrestling when you could perhaps rather be focusing on "whole package" exercises that have a higher plateau.

It's only a theory, I’m of course not experienced enough to be comment authoritatively on the matter and that is why I study the best and ask these question and compare different schools of thought.

[Las Botha]

An example I would just like to give was the MLA supermatch between Bresnan and Larratt.

What I found most impressive was during the 6th match, I believe, where Big Tim managed to prise Devon's hand halfway open from the short hit and started to rise on Devon without straps, twice.
Devon was capable of applying enough flat-finger pressure with his fingertips bent in and with his cup to keep such enormous pressures bracketed in a very uncomfortable defensive position and still bounce back with rotation on Tim’s wrist.

This straightens out the tendons in your palm in a way that grippers do not, and this strength might sprout from cupping exercises more so than grippers and (almost counterintuitively) pinch/flat-finger gripping too.

I wonder if the kind of demands that grip exercises would make on your routine wouldn't perhaps hinder the development of certain types of armwrestlers at a certain level in some way: afterall Larratt apparently does not focus on these at all.
Just a thought.

[Las Botha]

Hi Mike,

I'm definitely going to be trying the things that you and James suggested.
Another thing about the towel is that unlike the RT it can place pressure along the top ridge and your fingers all the way to the fignertips, and of course you can change your hand orientation mid-movement more seamlessly.

Both are definitely indispensable tools to an armwrestler.
I really liked James' idea of a rectangular block on the RT handle for keeping your fingers flat.
I will build my own this holiday.

[Bob Paradis]

good thread

I can't keep my hands bent at 90 degrees and squeeze grippers, but I can turn my hands in a little and do reps. As long as you don't bend your hands backwards as if to close a number 4 coc, then I believe you get arm wrestling benefit. I can't tell you the exact angle, but Tim Bresnan showed me how he does them, and he turns his hands in, but definitely not 90 degrees. Every hand is different and the younger guys might have an easier time getting closer to that 90 degrees. For reference, I am 51.

and JMO, but James is a really good source of technical information...you have come to the right place.

[Tero Lampikari]

The new Zenith gripper looks promising with smooth surface handles especially for volume work. (I'm waiting for mine to arrive in a few weeks)

www.ironmind-store.com/Zenith-No-1-Fitness-Gripper/productinfo/1476/

Here's a picture of John's technique:

www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Articles/2006/Nov/Brzenk_The_Best_in_Boomtown.html

[Logan Schuetzle]

Brzenk also said grippers do nothing for armwrestling. He just uses them for cardio in his forearm. Engin said the same thing.

[Tero Lampikari]

Dec 2, 2012 23:50:26 GMT -5 Logan Schuetzle said:

Brzenk also said grippers do nothing for armwrestling. He just uses them for cardio in his forearm. Engin said the same thing.

Cardio is good.

[Las Botha]

Dec 2, 2012 16:16:20 GMT -5 Bob Paradis said:

and JMO, but James is a really good source of technical information...you have come to the right place.

Hi Bob,

Not just your opinion, Bob; I have already learnt a thing or two about armwrestling and a few things not directly relating to armwrestling from James.

Bob, I cannot keep my hands exactly 90 degrees and grip either, since my index finger and to an extent my middle as well are too stiff over the extensor tendons.
This is something I am trying to look into in how it relates to our performance.
I'm not yet sure of HOW important wrist flexibility is, but I'm sure it is nonetheless and I'm sure it's underrated and may go some way in preventing injury.
I'm more interested in how it affects strength and how much more gound will it afford you in securing your cup.

I know from sprinting, too much stretching can have an adverse affect, but I'm never considered wrist suppleness. I also don't know how much more reach you can give your tendons and extensors.

==============================================

James has said that Tim is capable of wristcurling 365lbs behind is back, 2-handed, on an olympic bar- probably even more these days. That is incredible.
Tim is definitely a good proponent with very impressive hands:
Tim does gripper work, doesn't he?
Devon has mentioned that he sees Tim as a "handcontrol specialist".
Perhaps this type of work contributes to a lot more to his awesome handcontrol then some realize.
Gripper-type work perhaps benefits a certain type of armwrestler more.
A handcontrol specialist trained by them is probably less restricted by hand failure, and more focused on wrist integrity.

I have seen the European pullers use a plate-loaded machine with two parallel bars and bow over with the wrists bent. There may be something to it.
I have never seen one of these myself, you would probably have to build your own.

[Las Botha]

Dec 2, 2012 16:55:17 GMT -5 Tero Lampikari said:

The new Zenith gripper looks promising with smooth surface handles especially for volume work. (I'm waiting for mine to arrive in a few weeks)

www.ironmind-store.com/Zenith-No-1-Fitness-Gripper/productinfo/1476/

Here's a picture of John's technique:

www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Articles/2006/Nov/Brzenk_The_Best_in_Boomtown.html

Hi Tero,

I cannot see the image due to copyright.
Maybe you can give us a short review when yours does arrive ;D
How does a smoother handle benefit your workout though?
I'm very interested in doing negatives with heavy grippers like James mentioned though.

Dec 2, 2012 23:50:26 GMT -5 Logan Schuetzle said:

Brzenk also said grippers do nothing for armwrestling. He just uses them for cardio in his forearm. Engin said the same thing.

Hi Logan,

what exactly did they say?
I'm sure that everything elite athletes do is for overall health and strengthening that will in some way contribute toward their performance. If it's done at all by them, in any season, then ultimately it isn't useless.

My uncertainty is of exactly how much importance it is, and how others may see this suit their specific training needs and style, so that we can have some kind of reference, you know?
That doesn't make grippers wrong.
Some people just might need to focus on different exercises, eventhough there are of course universal truths in training for armwrestling, which is all part of the sport's development and expanding our understanding.
If the grippers were done by John just to help rehab a particular problem, that would be good to know.

[Tero Lampikari]

Dec 3, 2012 14:22:01 GMT -5 Las Botha said:

How does a smoother handle benefit your workout though?
I'm very interested in doing negatives with heavy grippers like James mentioned though.

Same reason you wouldn't want to practice pulling hours on a table without elbow pads.

When doing lots of reps, what Zenith is designed for, smooth handles are easier on your hands. Plus there is a certain challenge with smooth handles to keep the gripper in place in your hand during reps which is good for technique and control.

When doing heavy 1RM work or negatives knurling is good. So for negatives you would want the gripper to have traction.