|
|
Post by Joe Dimino on Aug 30, 2013 21:16:06 GMT -5
When I first saw someone lay their own arm down on the pad I wanted to puke. I understand the strategy, but how could you give up your manliness for strategy. When I first saw it, it was someone laying down to Tim B. Tim B will go down as a legend in this sport I would love the opportunity to pull him, how could you give that up for strategy? That's like getting beat up on purpose so you can sue, I could never do it. Am I alone here?
|
|
|
|
Post by John Wilson on Aug 30, 2013 23:09:56 GMT -5
If you lay down to save your arm for the finals, then you are gambling that you can make it all the way through without taking a loss, because you just made it single elimination for yourself.
If you lay down because you are in a bad position and there's no coming out of it without smoking your arm, you're kind of stupid not to lay down if you have no losses yet. Laying down is way more honorable than faking an elbow foul for a restart. If a guy takes a loss, he gives the other guy a win. He concedes he has been beaten. Hardly cheating.
It's a tournament. Strategy matters. Laying down almost never helps you, but you are the only one who can look after your own arm. If it comes down to wrecking your arm then smart beats big balls all day long.
Now, having guys sacrifice themselves by laying down to Denis / Pushkar / Alexey so he can be fresh to pull John B is pure and utter horsecrap. I'm no supporter of stacking the deck against a puller by turning half the class into ringers for the favorite puller. Happens to every American who goes to Zloty.
|
|
|
|
Post by John Wilson on Aug 30, 2013 23:22:23 GMT -5
I do understand where you are coming from, but this isn't a "manliness" biggest wiener competition. It's a sport. The guy taking home the cash is the manly one.
Think about it this way. Your first round draw clamps you down and watches you flop around like a fish. You've got a purple vein popping out of your forehead and he's smiling at you.
Option 1: keep straining until you crap your pants, blow your elbow, and lose anyway... because you are manly. Your next match is a guaranteed loss because any six year old girl in the crowd could knock you over with a feather after this match. What the hell, driving 4 hours in one direction to go 2 and Out is manly, right?
Option 2: hit him from three angles and when you can't move him off center, can't slip out, and can't breathe anymore you lay it down. You can think about how to pull this guy in the finals while your arm still has enough to make it back to him. And if you can't figure him out by then, well Second Place still pays $250.
Just another way to look at things.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on Aug 30, 2013 23:25:27 GMT -5
^^^ exactly why I would never go to that event unless I was paid handsomely and pulling was fun... Going all that way to get strategized on and raped all over.... Nope, not my bag
|
|
|
|
Post by John Wilson on Aug 30, 2013 23:29:31 GMT -5
^^^ exactly why I would never go to that event unless I was paid handsomely and pulling was fun... Going all that way to get strategized on and raped all over.... Nope, not my bag Exactly right. You know when you go there that their plan is to work you. You might as well walk down a back alley with your wallet in your hand, because that's the game and you're the designated chump. |
|
|
|
Post by Joe Dimino on Aug 31, 2013 0:15:38 GMT -5
I'm strictly talking about the walking up to the table and putting your own hand on the pad type of laying down.
|
|
|
|
Post by Derek Costa on Aug 31, 2013 0:45:34 GMT -5
^^^ exactly why I would never go to that event unless I was paid handsomely and pulling was fun... Going all that way to get strategized on and raped all over.... Nope, not my bag Zloty sounds terrifying. Anything goes in Europe I guess. |
|
|
|
Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Aug 31, 2013 5:00:21 GMT -5
^^^ exactly why I would never go to that event unless I was paid handsomely and pulling was fun... Going all that way to get strategized on and raped all over.... Nope, not my bag Zloty sounds terrifying. Anything goes in Europe I guess. LOL, Derek it's not. Same goes for A1. Read wht John wrote. They " laydowns" there, r to get to the $ and the Finals where there is more $. When I went to Neimroff in 08, the advice, from one of AWings so called " legends", was, "ur there for the money, don't get tied up in ur class, get to the final 4, which gets you to the Open, where there is more money. The first match of my class was me with A Semenrenko, had 1foul and 1warning, was in an ok position, but remembered those words, so instead of fighting and tiring out, I let up. Got to him later in final 4, and got my revenge. Now u always see just about everyone laying down to Denis. well no $hit, cause, it's all about placing and gretting PD, ESP with what this guys earn in a yr... also, if ur ever get the chance to go, the experience is great. |
|
|
|
Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on Aug 31, 2013 5:44:00 GMT -5
You sign up in a bracket to pull it shouldn't be strategy... Not like winning zloty really gives you a payday after all expenses.
You want to pull the best right ?... That's why I would fly over there... I mean winning the couple grand there is like winning a couple hundred locally... So what's the difference ?
Imagine if you went all that way and didn't get to pull semerenko again ... Say you fouled out... Your strategy woulda backfired and a great opportunity to pull an amazing puller would have slipped by.
A bracket is a bracket... You should go hard every match be it for money or not...., remember its PRIZE money... Paid to the WINNERS.... If I was sponsoring an event and saw people stratego their way to the $$$... When the point of offering a prize is to ensure the best show ... And give it their BEST .
All I know is if prizes get bigger there will need to be a control on that stuff... A structure change... Prize purse cut if the b side guy if he places 1 or 2.... 3 and 4 should be short money while 1 and 2 get the big $$... Plus have a bonus offered to making final 4 undefeated.... That eliminates b side play .... So like AI ... If first is 10k... But you dip into the b side to avoid a tough bracket... The first now available should be 5...
Like a game show... The winner gets paid... Why get the big money doing so from the losers bracket ?
|
|
|
|
Post by John Wilson on Aug 31, 2013 7:51:26 GMT -5
Rob, single elim would get rid of all of that strategizing. Better yet, pull a qualifier with no payout offered except a ticket to the show- top ten go to Round Robin.
|
|
|
|
Post by John Wilson on Aug 31, 2013 7:58:12 GMT -5
How about looking at the flip side.
If you find yourself on the table with the one other guy who can beat you if you make a mistake- but find yourself in that dream of a sweet spot- is it BS to hunker down and smoke the guy's arm out so he won't have a chance to come back and get you in the finals? Or is that kind of ruthless strategy okay?
|
|
|
|
Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on Aug 31, 2013 9:24:03 GMT -5
Well there are a few facets to that question...
Burning a guy out is your perigative... After all you are still pulling which taxes your arm and he could choose to let up if he feels that dominated.
Also recovery time and conditioning play a big part in this... You may have taken the edge off momentarily, but he may have more suited pulls that are easier for him to make final 4... Then break and rest... In finals he could be brand new again... It's case sensitive and the only guarantee is you will burn yourself more by sitting in there.
A prime example of sitting in a comfy spot backfiring is when I pulled Marcio in our rubber match...
I had him flopped and past my center line... I coulda say there all day... And I wasn't eager at all... I was waiting to make one hit to the pad while he was pressing and pressing. On one of his pumps my elbow fell off the elbow corner and down to table top... Dropping my arm that 2"... My arm angle never changed but my whole arm dropped bringing my wrist to parallel position for a second .... They called pin... I never lost a match I felt so comfortable in... Because I sat and tried to "burn" him.
The great position you have... Take it... Use it... If you wait you may not have it in another second.
Finally in an ode to confidence and performance replication... If you got said puller in such a great position... Why wouldn't you be able to pull it off again ?... Mindset wise... Not literally... I know the variables
|
|
|
|
Post by Pete & Tim on Aug 31, 2013 11:32:35 GMT -5
Tim b again I dont know witch time your talking about,if it was italy i ripped something in my arm and had to lay down to get further. If your talking about my Son Cory IF he wants to win im not takeing that away from him!!!!!!!! So please tell me were I laided down,and there was most likely a reson!!! Pete M Reggie ward and myself at one time were known as THE BIG THREE, we would show and all of the sudden there were no supers to pull son we would beat each other up (sucks to do that everytime to your close freinds) finaly in PA Pete tore up Reggies arm,soon after in NY I tore Petes bysept not a goo feeling, we had talked for nlong time about not pulling each other but we were stupid and put two out of three of us out of armwresling, do think laying down would have been the beter choice rather than loseing two of the best training partners ive ever
|
|
|
|
Post by Joe Dimino on Aug 31, 2013 12:38:30 GMT -5
No Mr. B, I saw someone lay down to you.
|
|
|
|
Post by Joe Dimino on Aug 31, 2013 12:42:59 GMT -5
And again I'm in no way talking about ending the match when you're in a losing position, you already gave it your best. I'm strictly talking about telling the ref you forfeit and putting your arm on the pad. If I was at a tourney in Tim B's weight class I'd be hoping I drew him in the first round so I could tell my kids. I wouldn't give that experience away for strategy.
|
|
