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Post by Karen Bean on Apr 27, 2007 7:37:59 GMT -5
I wasn't going to comment on this because without fail when someone posts a difference of opinion, this board seems to turn ugly in a hurry. But, after reading all the posts on this subject, I have to say - Guys, Welcome to OUR World! And yes I'm speaking about WOMEN. We have been discriminated forever in this country and, we still are. Men have forever been hired over women no matter if the women can do the job or not. Men have forever been paid more money for doing the same exact job as women. Men have forever been given loans, scholarships, housing, etc while women were denied. And, forever, the problem has basically fallen on deaf ears.
Affirmative action is a catch 22. People are damned with it and damned without it. It was a necessary evil due to the mentality of this human being doesn't belong and that human being does and the white male has to be dominant. And sadly it still continues.
Just look at our own sport as a small example. You harp on participation regarding women but you NEVER hear discussion regarding the men's participation. Whether it's Novice or Open or Masters or Grand Masters or Ultra Masters or Older than Dirt Masters you NEVER hear promoters telling men to go get them more participants. You virtually never hear promoters threatening to cut out men's classes but not only is it threatened, it's done with the women. This, my friends, is discrimination.
Now granted I complain too regarding the illegal immigrants that flow into this country on a daily basis but I do have to say in a different way than what I'm reading. This country is in desperate need of some major reform regarding this problem, but to simply deny these people anything whatsoever and send them packing? I agree with Mr. Wrigley regarding each and every one of your family trees. If you are not a native American, i.e. American Indian, your ancestors came here illegally. So your family too benefited off the United States government so how can you just simply complain and say send these people home?
Have you really taken a look at the benefit you gain from some of these people? Living where I do, there are 2 major crops - tobacco and tomatoes. The white citizens of the United States of America REFUSE to work the fields. Refuse! They would rather sit at home on their butts and wait for their welfare check to come in the mail. The fields here are full of Hispanic workers and yes, most of them are here illegally. But they are the workers that get these products planted, tended, harvested, packed, and shipped to market. No one else will do it. It's back breaking work, long hours, little pay. So you tell me who's worse or who should or shouldn't stay here. The people that are willing to bust their butts and work to feed, clothe, and house themselves and/or their families or the bums that sit on their butts waiting for their next handout?
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Post by gambit on Apr 27, 2007 8:45:39 GMT -5
... - Guys, Welcome to OUR World! And yes I'm speaking about WOMEN. We have been discriminated forever in this country and, we still are. Men have forever been hired over women no matter if the women can do the job or not. Men have forever been paid more money for doing the same exact job as women. Men have forever been given loans, scholarships, housing, etc while women were denied. And, forever, the problem has basically fallen on deaf ears. I understand your point here, Karen, and I, having a daughter who will be in the workplace in a few years, want her to make what she SHOULD make, so I completely agree here with you. Now on the other hand, since my business is principally owned by me, instead of Nancy, I do not get some work because SHE is not the principal owner. We have thought about changing our business to a minority owned business because those are the ones who are being contracted. Even though it is a small example in favor of women, it is a beneficial one none-the-less.  Not that I expect women to accept crumbs, so please don't misunderstand me. Affirmative action is a catch 22. People are damned with it and damned without it. It was a necessary evil due to the mentality of this human being doesn't belong and that human being does and the white male has to be dominant. And sadly it still continues. I don't think it has to do with the "white male has to be dominant". Maybe 30 years ago. I think it has to deal with possibly giving someone a chance at a job he/she is clearly not qualified for just so there won't be an uproar by the organizations, such as, NAACP, ACLU, etc., etc. Case in point: I worked a shut-down at Dow Chemical here in Baton Rouge in 1991 cleaning out catalyst vessels. There was a black lady assigned to, 'hole/fire watch', because she flat out refused to do anything else requiring labor. Hole/Fire watch consists of just sitting on your rear-end with a radio and fire extinguisher just in case something happens. When it came time to pick up the 12 pound fire extinguisher to move to another location she hailed down someone to carry it for her because...SHE DIDN'T WANT TO MESS UP HER 2 - 3 INCH FINGERNAILS SHE HAD PAINTED AND HAD TO CUT THE TIPS FROM HER GLOVES SO SHE COULD WEAR THEM. PATHETIC!!!. Her hair was put up in a bun (I think that is what it is called) and her hard hat was sitting at least 10" off of her head!! You know what, nothing was said to her because of the fear the race card would have been used and it was easier not to deal with it than to say something. SO, to wrap it all up in this summary is better described by saying, it was easier to hire her and not make her do the job she was supposed to do than to NOT hire her and there be an uproar! Don't get me wrong, I think everyone needs a starting point in life to get experience for a future job requiring said experience, but she, and a lot more like her, have made it where a DESERVING person didn't get the job(s) because taking advantage of the ACT was, and still is, being practiced by all who it "protects". I for one would not have wanted to be the people in the vessel with her on guard! Just look at our own sport as a small example. You harp on participation regarding women but you NEVER hear discussion regarding the men's participation. Whether it's Novice or Open or Masters or Grand Masters or Ultra Masters or Older than Dirt Masters you NEVER hear promoters telling men to go get them more participants. You virtually never hear promoters threatening to cut out men's classes but not only is it threatened, it's done with the women. This, my friends, is discrimination. What are the average amounts of participant in the above classes as compared to the women's? I truly don't know. Could the lack of filling all classes be a possibility? Now granted I complain too regarding the illegal immigrants that flow into this country on a daily basis but I do have to say in a different way than what I'm reading. This country is in desperate need of some major reform regarding this problem, but to simply deny these people anything whatsoever and send them packing? I agree with Mr. Wrigley regarding each and every one of your family trees. If you are not a native American, i.e. American Indian, your ancestors came here illegally. So your family too benefited off the United States government so how can you just simply complain and say send these people home? Karen, the argument is not about whether we should or should not provide assistance to the ones who go through the proper channels, but instead to the one who do not. Have you really taken a look at the benefit you gain from some of these people? Living where I do, there are 2 major crops - tobacco and tomatoes. The white citizens of the United States of America REFUSE to work the fields. Refuse! They would rather sit at home on their butts and wait for their welfare check to come in the mail. The fields here are full of Hispanic workers and yes, most of them are here illegally. But they are the workers that get these products planted, tended, harvested, packed, and shipped to market. No one else will do it. It's back breaking work, long hours, little pay. So you tell me who's worse or who should or shouldn't stay here. The people that are willing to bust their butts and work to feed, clothe, and house themselves and/or their families or the bums that sit on their butts waiting for their next handout? Sure, there are blacks and whites who do not want to do the work and they should not have a voice in the matter. However, on the same token the ILLEGAL aliens do the work because they are NOT legal to gain employment elsewhere. That is why they have to work the fields. And about earning money? They earn the money and send it back home where it is worth much more than their Peso. Taking money from the economy that way and being provided with assistance to do so while here. As far as welfare goes, I think it should only be used by those who NEED it and are not able to work, but the ones who ARE able should not gain one red cent. I have a sister who used to be on welfare and her attitude kept her on it because she wouldn't change that attitude when at a job, so she would keep getting fired. The point is, she knew she didn't HAVE to work as long as she knew she had another source...she just had to prove she attempted at work. Now the blacks in the same apartments weren't required to. Why? You know, me owning my own business I am out a hell of a lot of money just to be in compliance with the laws. Even before this venture I felt as I do now. |
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Post by Karen Bean on Apr 27, 2007 10:16:24 GMT -5
... - Guys, Welcome to OUR World! And yes I'm speaking about WOMEN. We have been discriminated forever in this country and, we still are. Men have forever been hired over women no matter if the women can do the job or not. Men have forever been paid more money for doing the same exact job as women. Men have forever been given loans, scholarships, housing, etc while women were denied. And, forever, the problem has basically fallen on deaf ears. I understand your point here, Karen, and I, having a daughter who will be in the workplace in a few years, want her to make what she SHOULD make, so I completely agree here with you. Now on the other hand, since my business is principally owned by me, instead of Nancy, I do not get some work because SHE is not the principal owner. We have thought about changing our business to a minority owned business because those are the ones who are being contracted. Even though it is a small example in favor of women, it is a beneficial one none-the-less. Not that I expect women to accept crumbs, so please don't misunderstand me. I don't think it has to do with the "white male has to be dominant". Maybe 30 years ago. I think it has to deal with possibly giving someone a chance at a job he/she is clearly not qualified for just so there won't be an uproar by the organizations, such as, NAACP, ACLU, etc., etc. Case in point: I worked a shut-down at Dow Chemical here in Baton Rouge in 1991 cleaning out catalyst vessels. There was a black lady assigned to, 'hole/fire watch', because she flat out refused to do anything else requiring labor. Hole/Fire watch consists of just sitting on your rear-end with a radio and fire extinguisher just in case something happens. When it came time to pick up the 12 pound fire extinguisher to move to another location she hailed down someone to carry it for her because...SHE DIDN'T WANT TO MESS UP HER 2 - 3 INCH FINGERNAILS SHE HAD PAINTED AND HAD TO CUT THE TIPS FROM HER GLOVES SO SHE COULD WEAR THEM. PATHETIC!!!. Her hair was put up in a bun (I think that is what it is called) and her hard hat was sitting at least 10" off of her head!! You know what, nothing was said to her because of the fear the race card would have been used and it was easier not to deal with it than to say something. SO, to wrap it all up in this summary is better described by saying, it was easier to hire her and not make her do the job she was supposed to do than to NOT hire her and there be an uproar! Don't get me wrong, I think everyone needs a starting point in life to get experience for a future job requiring said experience, but she, and a lot more like her, have made it where a DESERVING person didn't get the job(s) because taking advantage of the ACT was, and still is, being practiced by all who it "protects". I for one would not have wanted to be the people in the vessel with her on guard! What are the average amounts of participant in the above classes as compared to the women's? I truly don't know. Could the lack of filling all classes be a possibility? Karen, the argument is not about whether we should or should not provide assistance to the ones who go through the proper channels, but instead to the one who do not. Have you really taken a look at the benefit you gain from some of these people? Living where I do, there are 2 major crops - tobacco and tomatoes. The white citizens of the United States of America REFUSE to work the fields. Refuse! They would rather sit at home on their butts and wait for their welfare check to come in the mail. The fields here are full of Hispanic workers and yes, most of them are here illegally. But they are the workers that get these products planted, tended, harvested, packed, and shipped to market. No one else will do it. It's back breaking work, long hours, little pay. So you tell me who's worse or who should or shouldn't stay here. The people that are willing to bust their butts and work to feed, clothe, and house themselves and/or their families or the bums that sit on their butts waiting for their next handout? Sure, there are blacks and whites who do not want to do the work and they should not have a voice in the matter. However, on the same token the ILLEGAL aliens do the work because they are NOT legal to gain employment elsewhere. That is why they have to work the fields. And about earning money? They earn the money and send it back home where it is worth much more than their Peso. Taking money from the economy that way and being provided with assistance to do so while here. As far as welfare goes, I think it should only be used by those who NEED it and are not able to work, but the ones who ARE able should not gain one red cent. I have a sister who used to be on welfare and her attitude kept her on it because she wouldn't change that attitude when at a job, so she would keep getting fired. The point is, she knew she didn't HAVE to work as long as she knew she had another source...she just had to prove she attempted at work. Now the blacks in the same apartments weren't required to. Why? You know, me owning my own business I am out a hell of a lot of money just to be in compliance with the laws. Even before this venture I felt as I do now. I don't know how to break paragraphs out in quotes like you did Allen, so please bear with me here on my response. I can almost guarantee you that when your daughter joins the work force she won't make the same thing that her male co-workers do. I would be willing to bet almost everything I own that equal wages for equal work will not be seen in my lifetime nor in either of my daughter's lifetimes (they are 34 and almost 32). Please try to remember that in your example of the lady at work, "she" isn't the one that hired herself. The company did. Granted they are required to fill a quota per say but once that individual is hired, they are required to do the job as required. Failure to perform specific job duties, documented correctly and properly, are legal grounds for termination. Affirmative action or not, race card or not, every company out there has legitimate reasons and justifications for termination and are legally able to do so. This, IMO, falls to the company for failure to properly monitor their employees and their job performance. Now let's be truthful, in almost any company out there, you will always find at least one employee that is only a clock watcher/time card puncher. They do as little as possible just to get by for that almighty dollar. We've all had to suffer this and it does not fall for the majority of the time on the minority employees simply due to employee ethnic ratio. 30 years ago, yes the white male's dominance was prevalent but it still does exist today. Right now Hillary Clinton - whether we like her or not - is pushing for equal pay for men and women for doing the same job. Just watch - it won't happen. Neither will minority males be paid the same as white males. Now I don't mean in certain work places, I mean across the board. I agree it's absolutely ridiculous to hire any individual that is not experienced or capable of performing the specific duties required of a job. And, any company that does not hire based upon lack of experience or capability is well within their legal right and should be able to withstand any "fallout" that might occur from any of the groups out there. Just think for a moment - do you really think there are more men over the age of 50 that are competing than there are women? Just think of how many you, yourself, can name that are over 50 versus how many women you can name. Plus, it's just an example. I've been to many an event - excluding National events - that offer Masters divisions and the women have outnumbered them. But, the promoter complains about the lack of women participants, but says absolutely nothing regarding the lack of men in the Masters. And, isn't this really the norm in this country? Don't the men outnumber the women in just about all sports here? Allen I wasn't talking about anyone that went through the proper channels. I'm talking about people that are here illegally that are working their butts off to make a living. And, a ton of them have their families here with them and are supporting them. But let's take a look at the other side that you've mentioned - the illegals that send money home thus taking the dollar out of our economy. 99.9% of them are making below minimum wage. Below $6 an hour. That's peanuts being taken from our economy if they are sending the money home. And, a lot of them provide SS#'s that of course we know are bogus, but yet money is taken out of their checks and paid into our SS program and then never claimed or filed on. Now, let's look at the many, many people in our workforce, especially our medical field, that make $100K plus per year and they send money home to their families. This pulls a lot of money out of our economy - enough that could really make a difference but there's never a complaint about this. I begrudge absolutely no one to come to this country provided they join the workforce and try their level best to make a living for themselves. I begrudge all, legal or illegal, who are in this country sponging off of the rest of us. The welfare program is disgusting. Hand outs should absolutely not occur or be tolerated. You want a welfare check, go to work. Work for the city, the county, the state, but work. Have numerous meeting points around each town for the welfare recipients to go to receive work assignments. Have them mowing the medians on the highway and picking up the trash, take the state and/or government owned land in every state in this country and plant crops of whatever on it. Again, have the welfare recipients working the land. Whatever it is, put them to work. Do not give them an incentive to have more children because you get paid X amount of dollars per child. Also, do not send them checks that they can cash and then purchase whatever they want with it. Issue them a credit card that can only be used to pay light bills, gas bills, groceries, clothes, etc. Stop them from buying beer, cigarettes, drugs with our tax dollars. Stop them from laying at home doing nothing. This, IMO, should be one of the top priorities in this country instead of so much focus on the people that are here illegally that are working. |
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Post by gambit on Apr 27, 2007 12:33:45 GMT -5
I like this....good wholesome debate. I don't know how to break paragraphs out in quotes like you did Allen, so please bear with me here on my response. I would tell ya, but then you know what I'd have to do...  I can almost guarantee you that when your daughter joins the work force she won't make the same thing that her male co-workers do. I would be willing to bet almost everything I own that equal wages for equal work will not be seen in my lifetime nor in either of my daughter's lifetimes (they are 34 and almost 32). No disagreement here on this. I am merely saying I, too, would like it to happen and would hope I am in a position I could hire my children and pay them accordingly - as it should be. Please try to remember that in your example of the lady at work, "she" isn't the one that hired herself. The company did. Granted they are required to fill a quota per say but once that individual is hired, they are required to do the job as required. Failure to perform specific job duties, documented correctly and properly, are legal grounds for termination. Affirmative action or not, race card or not, every company out there has legitimate reasons and justifications for termination and are legally able to do so. This, IMO, falls to the company for failure to properly monitor their employees and their job performance. Now let's be truthful, in almost any company out there, you will always find at least one employee that is only a clock watcher/time card puncher. They do as little as possible just to get by for that almighty dollar. We've all had to suffer this and it does not fall for the majority of the time on the minority employees simply due to employee ethnic ratio. It is, definitely, the employer's responsibility to see the employee is doing the task(s) they are hired for, and they should administer the appropriate consequence anyone else would get if they failed to do so. Even though working on that principle, you have companies who are "gun shy" when it comes to reprimanding the minorities. The race card is pulled too much and is some of the time followed with a suit, or monetary settlements. Even one suit would tarnish a company's reputation. It makes me wonder, if they are forced to hire them for the quota, per se, why can they not make them do the work even though they DO have the legal bindings to do so? Like I said earlier, it is easier NOT to do something than TO do something. 30 years ago, yes the white male's dominance was prevalent but it still does exist today. Right now Hillary Clinton - whether we like her or not - is pushing for equal pay for men and women for doing the same job. Just watch - it won't happen. Neither will minority males be paid the same as white males. Now I don't mean in certain work places, I mean across the board. I disagree that the average is across the board. At my last employment the blacks were paid just as much as I was, some even more, for the respectable positions held. They were afforded more leniency than I was, which made for an abrasive environment. Not to get into all that, but every where I have worked the minorities have been treated better, both in environment and in pay. I know the pay for women will not be the same as men, but all we can do is hope the right people get it taken care of. I agree it's absolutely ridiculous to hire any individual that is not experienced or capable of performing the specific duties required of a job. And, any company that does not hire based upon lack of experience or capability is well within their legal right and should be able to withstand any "fallout" that might occur from any of the groups out there. I think if a person is to be responsible for, let's say what recently happened to me with a guy, who got hired, and is black, at a nuclear plant for Nuclear Operation Operator, and had ZERO experience, millions of dollars worth of equipment and thousands of lives at stake, I would want someone in that seat who had at least 5 years of operations experience. I have over 17 years years experience in this type industry and that is the reason I applied. You won't see me applying to be a CPA anytime soon. This is the reason you have the requirements, stated in employment ads, you must have a certain level of education and experience to hold offering position. This is why when you look in the Classifieds the jobs are listed according to category. Just think for a moment - do you really think there are more men over the age of 50 that are competing than there are women? Just think of how many you, yourself, can name that are over 50 versus how many women you can name. Plus, it's just an example. I've been to many an event - excluding National events - that offer Masters divisions and the women have outnumbered them. But, the promoter complains about the lack of women participants, but says absolutely nothing regarding the lack of men in the Masters. And, isn't this really the norm in this country? Don't the men outnumber the women in just about all sports here? I truly don't know right now, Karen, that is why I was asking. It is something which has had me wondering as well. ... But let's take a look at the other side that you've mentioned - the illegals that send money home thus taking the dollar out of our economy. 99.9% of them are making below minimum wage. Below $6 an hour. That's peanuts being taken from our economy if they are sending the money home. And, a lot of them provide SS#'s that of course we know are bogus, but yet money is taken out of their checks and paid into our SS program and then never claimed or filed on. Bogus SS# and having money deducted from their pay is a small price to pay to be in the country you illegally entered while recieving FREE medical care and monetary assistance. The bogus numbers are only to keep the INS / Border Patrol from looking harder than they would if the illegals had the number. Now, let's look at the many, many people in our workforce, especially our medical field, that make $100K plus per year and they send money home to their families. This pulls a lot of money out of our economy - enough that could really make a difference but there's never a complaint about this. Oh, there's a complaint about it. Let's not forget about the convenience stores! The complaint that some of the monies are going back to fund other not-so-wholesome organizations. Again, if they did the proper steps to be here, then free enterprise reigns.  I begrudge absolutely no one to come to this country provided they join the workforce and try their level best to make a living for themselves. I begrudge all, legal or illegal, who are in this country sponging off of the rest of us. I agree. This is my exact point. The welfare program is disgusting. Hand outs should absolutely not occur or be tolerated. You want a welfare check, go to work. Work for the city, the county, the state, but work. Have numerous meeting points around each town for the welfare recipients to go to receive work assignments. Have them mowing the medians on the highway and picking up the trash, take the state and/or government owned land in every state in this country and plant crops of whatever on it. Again, have the welfare recipients working the land. Whatever it is, put them to work. Do not give them an incentive to have more children because you get paid X amount of dollars per child. Also, do not send them checks that they can cash and then purchase whatever they want with it. Issue them a credit card that can only be used to pay light bills, gas bills, groceries, clothes, etc. Stop them from buying beer, cigarettes, drugs with our tax dollars. Stop them from laying at home doing nothing. This, IMO, should be one of the top priorities in this country instead of so much focus on the people that are here illegally that are working. I, again, agree with this up to the last sentence. The people, whether working or not, should not be here illegally. Bottom line. If the focus was diverted any further from the "illegal's" issues, then it can only get worse with them and welfare will run even more rampant. |
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Post by Mat Helmer on Apr 27, 2007 17:38:19 GMT -5
Here's some current policies...
CULTIVATING DIVERSITY: The College values diversity in the workplace and strongly encourages applications from qualified African Nova Scotians and other members of the visible minority community, Aboriginal people, persons with disabilities and women in non-traditional roles. Applicants from these designated groups wishing to self-identify may do so in their cover letters or by completing the Cultivating Diversity questionnaire at the end of the online application.
At Air Canada, we want to fly higher when it comes to employment equity. We therefore encourage applications from Aboriginal peoples, women, members of a visible minority and persons with a disability.
Committed to employment equity, the City of Toronto encourages applications from Aboriginal people, people with disabilities, members of visible minority groups and women.
Accommodation will be provided in all parts of the hiring process as required under the City’s Employment Accommodation policy. Applicants need to make their needs known in advance.
We welcome applications from qualified individuals of all genders and sexual orientations, persons with disabilities, Aboriginal persons, and persons of a visible minority.
Toyota Canada Inc. is committed to employment equity and encourages applications from Aboriginal persons, persons with disabilities, members of visible minority groups and women.
Northwestel values diversity in the workplace and is committed to the goals of Employment Equity. We strive to achieve a skilled workforce that is representative of the population we serve. To receive priority consideration, candidates are encouraged to indicate voluntarily on their application if they are a woman, Aboriginal person, a member of a visible minority group or a person with disability.
As well, if you're a visible minority woman or an Aboriginal woman who's interested in joining the Ottawa Police Service. Those with knowledge of the traditions & culture of aboriginal people are incourage to apply.
Committed to employment equity, Optech Incorporated encourages applications from Aboriginal people, people with disabilities, members of visible minority groups and women.
NAV CANADA is committed to building a skilled, diverse workforce reflective of Canadian society. As a result, it promotes employment equity and encourages candidates to indicate voluntarily on their application if they are a woman, an Aboriginal person, a person with a disability or a member of a visible minority group.
NAV CANADA is committed to developing inclusive, barrier-free selection processes and work environments. If contacted regarding this competition, please advise the interview coordinator of accommodation measures you may require.
OSFI is committed to building a skilled, diverse workforce reflective of Canadian society. As a result, it promotes employment equity and encourages candidates to indicate voluntarily on their application if they are a woman, an Aboriginal person, a person with a disability or a member of a visible minority group.
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Post by gambit on May 1, 2007 10:16:50 GMT -5
That's OK, this is our savior in the rough.  |
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Post by gambit on May 26, 2007 8:38:35 GMT -5
Read the signs!
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Not that I expect women to accept crumbs, so please don't misunderstand me.
