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Post by TK on Apr 21, 2007 13:32:29 GMT -5
Ali is 1-0 vs Tyson 0-1
new bout...Holmes vs Ali
prime vs prime.....
We all know Holmes beat him in later years.....
of course i'm voting for Holmes..he's my all time fave boxer and he killed the King....Ali...I was a baby when it happened...but enjoyed it the same.
TK
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Post by Bob Brown on Apr 21, 2007 14:46:36 GMT -5
Ali
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Post by Casey Szparaga on Apr 21, 2007 20:15:26 GMT -5
Ali
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Post by Mark Evans on Apr 22, 2007 0:37:15 GMT -5
I rated Ali #1 of all time. Holmes #2. That was based on Ali's record against the best fighters over 3 decades. That would have made a GREAT fight. Ali struggled with Norton, even losing once. Holmes kicked Norton's A_ _ with one good arm. Ali didn't want any thing to do with a young undefeated Larry Holmes after sparring with him.
Ali had a slight edge in foot work. Holmes had a better left jab (Ali's was great,However, Holmes was just as fast and much harder) Holmes had a stronger right hand, as long or longer reach. Both took great punishment.
Holmes by decision.
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Post by TK on Apr 22, 2007 17:13:14 GMT -5
Holmes was just as fast and much harder) Holmes had a stronger right hand, as long or longer reach. Both took great punishment.
Holmes by decision.
I agree.....question how did ya vote?
TK
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Post by Mark Evans on Apr 22, 2007 18:56:00 GMT -5
Missed it. We aren't going to win this one.
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Post by Carey Nick on Apr 23, 2007 11:44:31 GMT -5
I rated Ali #1 of all time. Holmes #2. That was based on Ali's record against the best fighters over 3 decades. That would have made a GREAT fight. Ali struggled with Norton, even losing once. Holmes kicked Norton's A_ _ Holmes had a better left jab (Ali's was great,However, Holmes was just as fast and much harder) Holmes had a stronger right hand, as long or longer reach. Both took great punishment. Holmes by decision.Have to agree with Mark on this one I also like Ali , have to fav. (And I voted for) Holmes. |
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Post by enginterzi on Apr 23, 2007 13:55:36 GMT -5
Muhammad Ali lost to Holmes on 21. year of his career,after making a come back again.he already had parkinson disease.i watched the match,Ali could not even move at 25% of his best.
i watched Holmes against Tyson on 15. year of his career.he was destroyed by Tyson.Ali was beating boxers like Frazier and Foreman on 15. year of his career.
Holmes lost to Michael Spinks in 1985 and 1986 on 12.-13. year of career.i am sure that Ali would destroy Holmes in his "fly like a butterfly sting like a bee" times.
Ali lost to Norton in 1973 and then beat him 6 months later.Holmes beat Norton in 1978 which was 3 years before Norton retired.Ken Norton lost 3 of his last 5 matches anyways.he lost to Holmes with "split desicion" while Shavers knocked Norton out,and Gerry Cooney beat Norton with TKO.
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Post by Carey Nick on Apr 23, 2007 14:43:39 GMT -5
And your pick is?
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Post by enginterzi on Apr 23, 2007 14:48:49 GMT -5
.i am sure that Ali would destroy Holmes in his "fly like a butterfly sting like a bee" times. |
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Post by Carey Nick on Apr 23, 2007 16:55:05 GMT -5
AHH!!
Failed to read the fine print!! Sorry for the mistake. I still like Holmes. JMO
TK-- Who's the next two fighters?
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Post by TK on Apr 23, 2007 17:47:03 GMT -5
I'll wait a few days and see if Holmes makes a comeback....  ..... .Holmes was my all time fave.....it crushed me to see him go down...i guess thats why i went witgh Tyson next..... Holmes has been left out of too many converstions when it comes to Boxing..... in comparisons like what Engn says......sure they were out of thier prime...but the question is prime vs prime...and i think Holmes record was much better than Ali's....Ali took some whippings folks....more than any other i think......he lost his title how many times in his long career?? Engin'll know this answer. he wasn't as consistant...... TK |
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Post by Mark Evans on Apr 23, 2007 21:52:03 GMT -5
Engin -
I would never use the Holmes-Ali fight when predicting who would win between the two. Ali was way past his ability to fight at that point of thier bout. Fact is, Holmes didn't even want to take the fight because he was afraid he would hurt Ali, he had respect for him. Like I wouldn't use the Holmes-Tyson fight, as Holmes was way past his ability to fight and was lucky a young, angry Tyson didn't knock him stupid. Ken Norton did get knocked out by three devistating punchers. Shavers probably hit harder than Forman and Jerry Cooney also possessed tremendous punching power. Norton never fared well against hard bangers, as his defense was terrible agains t power punchers. He was able to give Ali fits because of his crab-style defense and looping punches. Larry Holmes fought Kenny Norton essentially with one arm, for 11 rounds. If my memory serves me correct, he tore or dislocated something in his right shoulder in round two and whipped Norton with his left hand. Using his right hand sparingly from round two on. Speaking of the Spinks brothers; Michael and Leon both won Olympic gold medals in the 76' games. Leon fought and beat Ali after only having 9 pro fights. Larry Holmes lost to a much better boxer and fighter when Micheal beat him. And as much as I hate to say, Holmes was robbed, at best the first fight should have been a draw. There were however many people in the boxing world that did not want to see Holmes beat Rocky Marciano's record. Ali will always be ranked as my #1 all time greatest heavy weight, however, I truely believe that the Easton Assassin would have beat Ali if they would have fought.
TK - while it is true Ali lost more fights than Holmes, he did have a great record fighting against the best fighters for three decades.
I love these discussions. Engin - you are fun to debate with, as you go the extra mile with the research. I am operating truely on memory, hopefully my facts are correct.
Take care.
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Post by enginterzi on Apr 24, 2007 5:26:00 GMT -5
Muhammad Ali career record
Before Exile: 29 - Won: 29 (100 %)
After Exile: 32 - Won: 27 (84,4 %)- Lost: 5 (15,6 %)
Championship Bouts: 25 - Won: 22 (88 %)- Lost: 3 (12 %)
some high light wins
Archie Moore Los Angeles KO 4
Sonny Liston Miami Beach KO 7
Sonny Liston Lewiston, Maine KO 1
Floyd Patterson Las Vegas KO 12
Cleveland Williams Houston KO 3
Jimmy Ellis Houston KO 12
Ken Norton Los Angeles W 12
Joe Frazier New York W 12
George Foreman Kinshasa, Zaire KO 8
Joe Frazier Manila, Philippines KO 14
Ken Norton New York W 15
Earnie Shavers New York W 15
IMO who you beat is more important than the win - lose record.Ali was not allowed to box in his golden age,he really was flying like a butterfly and stinging like a bee.IMO the boxing had it's golden age in 70s and Ali beat all of them untill he got too old to use his overwhelming energy.Foreman at his 40s came back and proved that boxers of 80s and 90s are nothing compare to the boxers of 70s.Foreman in the shape of his prime would kill today's boxers.he would destroy Holyfield and even Tyson.
Muhammad Ali lost his title in 1967 not because of losing a boxing match,then he received his first career lost against Frazier (who had to stay in hospital for 2 weeks) only a year after 3,5 years of exile.but he came back and beat Frazier 2 times.it is a mistake to see boxing as a math problem,conditions need to be considered too.i call it common sense,on my eyes Foreman to lose some more matches at his 40s does not take anything from his greatness in boxing.it is something to commend.Ali boxed professionally for more than 20 years,and the last part of it was with a serious illness.any other man who would go through everything that Ali went,would not go as far as Ali reached.he was the First man to knockdown Sonny Liston, George Foreman, and Chuck Wepner.When Ali stopped Sonny Liston for the World Heavyweight Title, Liston had not lost a fight in over 10 years.when he knocked Foreman out,Foreman had 40-0-0 career record with 37 KOs.Holyfield says to this day that Foreman was without a doubt the strongest and best puncher he ever fought.
as Foreman said,"the boxing was too small for Ali".professional boxing had it's golden age because of Ali.the man currently sold his name right for 50 million dollars.not bad for a 65 years old man who retired from active sport almost 30 years ago.for sure the level of boxing was at it's highest ever when Muhammad Ali ruled the boxing world.
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Post by TK on Apr 24, 2007 6:01:56 GMT -5
Engin,
Foreman didn't really didn't rock anyones world in the late years....he could take the punishment...but i seen too many boxers out box him...just couldn't get his big butt to fall.....but his grills are cool.
Tk
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