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Post by enginterzi on Jul 7, 2007 9:36:30 GMT -5
more of advises;
12. We bestowed (in the past) Wisdom on Luqman "Show (thy) gratitude to Allah." Any who is (so) grateful does so to the profit of his own soul: but if any is ungrateful, verily Allah is free of all wants, Worthy of all praise. 13. Behold, Luqman said to his son admonishing him: "O my son! join not in worship (others) with Allah: for false worship is indeed the highest wrong-doing." 14. And We have enjoined on man (to be good) to his parents: in travail upon travail did his mother bear him, and in years twain was his weaning: (hear the command), "Show gratitude to Me and to thy parents: to Me is (thy final) Goal. 15. "But if they strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), and follow the way of those who turn to Me: in the end the return of you all is to Me, and I will tell you all that ye did." 16. "O my son!" (said Luqman, "If there be (but) the weight of a mustard-seed and it were (hidden) in a rock, or (anywhere) in the heavens or on earth, Allah will bring it forth: for Allah is Subtle and Aware . 17. "O my son! establish regular prayer, enjoin what is just, and forbid what is wrong: and bear with patient constancy whatever betide thee; for this is firmness (of purpose) in (the conduct of) affairs. 18. "And swell not thy cheek (for pride) at men, nor walk in insolence through the earth; for Allah loveth not any arrogant boaster. 19. "And be moderate in thy pace, and lower thy voice; for the harshest of sounds without doubt is the braying of the ass." 20. Do ye not see that Allah has subjected to your (use) all things in the heavens and on earth, and has made His bounties flow to you in exceeding measure, (both) seen and unseen? Yet there are among men those who dispute about Allah, without knowledge and without guidance, and without a Book to enlighten them! 21. When they are told to follow the (Revelation) that Allah has sent down, they say: "Nay, we shall follow the ways that we found our fathers (following). "What! even if it is Satan beckoning them to the Chastisement of the (Blazing) Fire? 22. Whoever submits his whole self to Allah, and is a doer of good, has grasped indeed the firmest hand-hold: and with Allah shall all things return. 23. But if any reject Faith, let not his rejection grieve thee: to Us is their return, and We shall tell them the truth of their deeds: for Allah knows well all that is in (men's) hearts. 24. We grant them their pleasure for a little while: in the end shall We drive them to a chastisement unrelenting. 25. If thou ask them, who it is that created the heavens and the earth. They will certainly say, "Allah". Say: "Praise be to Allah." But most of them know not. 26. To Allah belong all things in heaven and earth: verily Allah is He (that is) free of all wants, worthy of all praise. 27. And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the Words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom. 28. And your creation or your resurrection is in no wise but as an individual soul: for Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things). 29. Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day and he merges Day into Night; that He has subjected the sun, and the moon (to His Law), each running its course for a term appointed; and that Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do? 30. That is because Allah is the Truth, and because whatever else they invoke besides Him is Falsehood; and because Allah,- He is the Most High, Most Great. 31. Seest thou not that the ships sail through the ocean by the Grace of Allah?- that He may show you of His Signs? Verily in this are Signs for all who constantly persevere and give thanks. 32. When a wave covers them like the canopy (of clouds), they call upon Allah, offering Him sincere devotion. But when He has delivered them safely to land, there are among them those that falter between (right and wrong). But none reject Our Signs except only a perfidious ungrateful (wretch)! 33. O mankind! do your duty to your Lord, and fear (the coming of) a Day when no father can avail aught for his son, nor a son avail aught for his father. Verily, the promise of Allah is true: let not then this present life deceive you, nor let the Chief Deceiver deceive you about Allah. 34. Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does any one know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: nor does any one know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things).
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Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 7, 2007 10:40:19 GMT -5
[ What matters is our righteousness. That one true God is going to judge us on our righteousness. The bible teaches that our righteousness is as filthy rags......interesting, that reference is refering to menstrual rags uggh. Our "righteousness" doesnt matter. It is his Righteousness alone that matters.......in the eyes of God he makes us righteous through the blood of christ. So.....christianity teaches the blood of Christ is the only thing that can make us righteous. Therefore.......one of us (islam, or christiany) is wrong.[/qoute] Ryan, let us respectfully agree to disagree. My belief is that God has a reason for the existence of the 3 major monotheistic religions. We will find out when we die. It is not fair to say that a righteous Jew or Muslim cannot be friends with God and go to heaven. Again, logic dictates that there can only be one God. We accept Jesus as God. The Muslims accept Him as a great profit. That is an excellent common ground. When I hear a Muslim calling "Allah," I believe he is talking to the one true God. If you, Ryan, or I were raised as a Muslim, we would likely be teaching what Engin is teaching. Mathew 25:31-45 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit upon His glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before Him. And He will separate them one from another, as a Shepard separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the Goats on His left. Then the king will say to those on His right, "Come,you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me." Then the righteous will answer Him and say, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?And the King will say to them in reply, "Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me." Then He will say to those on his left, "Depart from me you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me." Then they will answer and say, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?" He will answer them, "Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me." And those will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. As a Christian, I believe we are washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb. That's what makes the salvation of the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE possible, but not guaranteed. You must cooperate with grace. Your faith in the one almighty God will lead you to grace. Muslims, Jews, and Christians of faith are led to grace. The choice is to cooperate or not...feed the poor or don't feed the poor, love your neighbor as yourself or refuse to love, etc.
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Post by enginterzi on Jul 7, 2007 10:50:19 GMT -5
Your more than welcome to worship the same God that engin worships..... As i stated before, engin and i disagree on that. But the God of islam, is not the God of the bible. The significant difference is that the God of christiany provided a sacrifice to cleanse our sin. The God of Islam, doesntprovide that. So.......one of them is wrong......and it CANT be the same God. Because God is infallible. and perfect. this.....is a significant contradiction.....and to say that they are the same God......is pretty dangerous in my opinion. Especially for a christian......That violates the basics of scripture. from this point i agree with Ryan.yes i wrote that we Muslims believe that Jews,Christians and Muslims believe in same GOD but the GOD that i meant is the one that you call Father.i did not mean to include son and holy ghost. i will not go any further in this Trinty vs Unity discussion since it is not related with the thread and i do not want Grippler to regret to believe that Faiths can meet eachother without arguing.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 7, 2007 11:07:08 GMT -5
Mathew 7:21 "Not everyone that says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven." Faith without works is empty.
A reasonable synopsis of all religion would be something like the following: God is Love. He expects us to love Him. He expects us to love one another. That loving relationship between people has God in it (because He is love) see 1 John 4. So, the love of one human for another human has God in it. God is part of us. He is all powerful and transcendent. He is with every human always and everywhere. Our choice is to love or hate. Christians cannot tie down Muslims or Jews with Christian rules. Let God judge them individually, based on how they love and hate. Obviously, a huge part of love is how understanding and compassionate we are with each others' faiths.
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Post by enginterzi on Jul 7, 2007 11:16:47 GMT -5
Ryan, let us respectfully agree to disagree. My belief is that God has a reason for the existence of the 3 major monotheistic religions. We will find out when we die. It is not fair to say that a righteous Jew or Muslim cannot be friends with God and go to heaven. Again, logic dictates that there can only be one God. We accept Jesus as God. The Muslims accept Him as a great profit. That is an excellent common ground. When I hear a Muslim calling "Allah," I believe he is talking to the one true God. If you, Ryan, or I were raised as a Muslim, we would likely be teaching what Engin is teaching. Mathew 25:31-45 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit upon His glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before Him. And He will separate them one from another, as a Shepard separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the Goats on His left. Then the king will say to those on His right, "Come,you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me." Then the righteous will answer Him and say, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?And the King will say to them in reply, "Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me." Then He will say to those on his left, "Depart from me you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me." Then they will answer and say, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?" He will answer them, "Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me." And those will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. As a Christian, I believe we are washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb. That's what makes the salvation of the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE possible, but not guaranteed. You must cooperate with grace. Your faith in the one almighty God will lead you to grace. Muslims, Jews, and Christians of faith are led to grace. The choice is to cooperate or not...feed the poor or don't feed the poor, love your neighbor as yourself or refuse to love, etc. you are surprising me Bob.i have never seen this much of positive view for Muslims by a Christian.the best part of the Bible for my view is the book of James where he says "YOUR FAITH IS DEAD WITHOUT WORKS". i believe that we are not sitting at the judging position but we will be judged.and as we know the trees by their fruits,our deeds will be the sign of our faiths.GOD needs nothing from us,we need HIM,his mercy,forgiveness and love.i believe that more we share what HE has given to us with others in need then closer we get to HIM.because the things that we think as ours in fact are not ours but HIS.because every one will taste the death and leave the earthly things at behind him-her.and i am sure that HE would want us to share what is given to us by HIM,with the ones in need.how will he test us if all these were not commanded to us to check our obedience?we have a saying ,"I LOVE THE CREATURES BECAUSE OF THEIR CREATOR".it means that we should love everything that HE created because HE created them with HIS will.HE is the only one to judge what HE created (about heaven and hell). the idea of Grippler to start this thread is what GOD wants from us,is a race in good deeds.i surely believe that the world would be a peaceful place if all the believers would be in a competetion to show their faiths in charity,honesty and peace. "148. To each is a goal to which Allah turns him; then strive together (as in a race) towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, Allah will bring you together. For Allah Hath power over all things."
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Post by enginterzi on Jul 7, 2007 11:55:46 GMT -5
i thank you Nancy for the objective viewing.i am not even near to be a good person when i judge myself according to the advises by my faith,but i once was much better person when i listenned more of HIS advises and tried to see the life by HIS eyes with forgetting my temporary benefits that time to time causes me to act unjustly.at that time i realised that the way of God is the only solution for one's heart to find peace.but Satan never stops trying and he is ready to use any weakness in your nature.it can be money,women,fame or any other thing that is created attractive.in fact GOD does not expect from us more than what we can handle.what do i need that God forbade me?water?air?food?woman?fun?HE gave all to me but in the way that HE ordered.HE only forbids me to take other's goods,to deceive others,to behave like animals in many ways.
so if as a Muslim i do not have peace in my heart now,the reason is not my faith but my worldly desires.so when i do not follow what is commanded to me and lost my way then it is not the fault of my religion but of mine.that is why i do my best to share what my religion is in real because it hurts me deeply when they call us "SATANIC" or "TERRORRIST" or other similar things.i will not go into the political subjects because it is not the subject of the thread but in general no one is innocent.religions have always been used by people for their wrong doings.i would understand people are fighting for their rights and lives since all sides think that they are right and that is why there will be a judgement day because we can not purify ourselves since we are not the judge but the subject to be judged.but i will never understand the civillian killings.in fact i will never understand killing another human being but once it gets started it is hard to control it.but even this should have some rules and it should stay away from the civillians esspecially from children,women,elderly,disabled and ill.
as a muslim my position is very sensitive because i believe in early books and prophets as strong as i believe in Quran and in our prophet.otherwise i can not be a Muslim.so when Jew or Christian say "SATANIC" for my book or for my prophet i can not say the same thing back to them.yes there is a difference in our faiths about Jesus and we do not worship him but our respect and love for him is as great as it is for Muhammad.you have never heard or never will hear from a true Muslim's mouth anything negative for Moses or for Jesus,never.but we always hear all kind of bad words about our prophet.because they do not believe in him.i know also some Jews says bad things about Jesus and his mother and how we feel is similar to this.so i try to express how we Muslims see our religion even though most of the westerners are prejudiced because of some reasons.
anyways,sorry for writing too much about this matter.
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Post by enginterzi on Jul 7, 2007 12:45:05 GMT -5
It is very painful to grind out our differences and have to end a conversation on willing to agree to disagree; but it is a beautiful thing when we reach for things we share in common. ... you are very right,we do not have to believe exactly the same to be able to have peaceful relationships.all religions should have only one purpose which is to establish peace and happiness on earth.if there was only one team in the NBA then there would be no competetion and when there is no competetion then there would be no progressing.i am not saying that GOD leaded us to different directions but has divided us unto races with language and colour differences and also sent messengers to inform us what life is about and also about HIS rules that creates justice,equality and peace as the result.sometimes mankind followed their own desires by leaving the right path and sometimes they did this by using GOD and HIS message in the way to reach their wordly desires. 44. It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Isl᭩ to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers. 45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are wrong-doers. 46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. 47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. 48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a Law and an Open Way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
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Post by STEVE PHIPPS on Jul 7, 2007 15:23:58 GMT -5
I like the idea behind this thread! Thanks.
Engin,
Good to see you posting again.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 7, 2007 15:27:33 GMT -5
Engin, you are a fair man. The western media refers to Muslims like you as "moderates." The Muslims who give your religion a bad name are called by our media, "the Muslim fundamentalists or fanatics." What they mean by that would be the people that would use force to coerce the entire earth's population to practice Islam. Saudi Arabia doesn't allow anyone to own a Bible or talk about Jesus.
Just to be fair, I will acknowledge that Christians and Jews have sects that are "fundamentalists or fanatical." My question is this: Is it fair for countries like Saudi Arabia to impose Muslim rules on the entire population? My understanding of the Saudi educational system in the past has been to teach their children that anyone outside of Islam is an infidel.
Since I want this thread to remain positive, and I want to learn from it, please understand that what I say about Saudi Arabia is what I have learned through the western press. I certainly don't accept it as absolute fact. I would be more interested in listening to your understanding of the situations in countries like Saudi Arabia. Thanks ahead of time.
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Post by enginterzi on Jul 7, 2007 16:09:00 GMT -5
thank you Steve Bob, i have no idea about what goes on in S.Arabia.it is hard for me to talk about what i do not know.but in Islam there are people of book (Jews and Christians) and infidels who deny GOD.as a Muslim i can marry with a Jew or Christian but i can not marry an unbeliever.so there is a difference.i live in Turkey and we do not live under islamic rules,we are not doing well IMO.becoming more and more corrupted day by day.losing our values and, plans are made on daily expectations.more injection comes by our sold media to weaken us to be controlled by the big bosses who worship money.it is better us to show our faiths on this thread instead of going into political matters since you may not know of but this board had some disturbing arguments which usually involved me because i am the only one from this part of the world and i have very competetive nature.there are tens of things in many countries that i find wrong such as pornography,prostitution,drug use and so.i call it political because what governments do are political.does not matter if it is based on religion or ideas like capitalism and socialism.but we better not chat about another subject on this thread.if i made this mistake in my earlier posts then i apoligise about it. ps.there should be no king or dictator in an Islamic nation.that is why i do not count what S.A rabia does as a religious action to represant Islam.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 8, 2007 0:56:44 GMT -5
thank you Steve Bob, i have no idea about what goes on in S.Arabia.it is hard for me to talk about what i do not know.but in Islam there are people of book (Jews and Christians) and infidels who deny GOD.as a Muslim i can marry with a Jew or Christian but i can not marry an unbeliever.so there is a difference.i live in Turkey and we do not live under islamic rules,we are not doing well IMO.becoming more and more corrupted day by day.losing our values and, plans are made on daily expectations.more injection comes by our sold media to weaken us to be controlled by the big bosses who worship money.it is better us to show our faiths on this thread instead of going into political matters since you may not know of but this board had some disturbing arguments which usually involved me because i am the only one from this part of the world and i have very competetive nature.there are tens of things in many countries that i find wrong such as pornography,prostitution,drug use and so.i call it political because what governments do are political.does not matter if it is based on religion or ideas like capitalism and socialism.but we better not chat about another subject on this thread.if i made this mistake in my earlier posts then i apoligise about it. ps.there should be no king or dictator in an Islamic nation.that is why i do not count what S.A rabia does as a religious action to represant Islam. Thanks again Engin. I can't say that I'm proud of our culture here in the USA anymore. Just like you said...the money machines around here have pushed the sleaze on the masses. Our television is so base, you have to search carefully to find "clean" programming. My children don't even watch TV. They play instruments, read, hang out with their mother, play with each other, maybe watch tennis or cooking shows. The one thing I do respect about our country is that you can practice any religion you want, or not if you don't want. If anything, the tide seems to be turning in the right direction. Most people here do not want to be involved in foreign wars unless it's absolutely necessary. There seems to be a trend in the right direction with regards to respect life issues. People are finding that owning all kinds of stuff at the expense of your soul leaves you empty. Think about it. I've seen people work 7 days per week to achieve wealth. 30 years later they have plenty of wealth, but are so sad. Their leisure pursuits give them no real joy. I've seen it in peoples faces while visiting casinos...that smiley face with the pain underneath. We will see how our respective countries trend over the next couple of decades. People of God have to unite and be a HUGE force in the voting booth. If we don't, at the rate of 1.6 million babies aborted in the US alone, how long will it be before God lets us be destroyed? I thought the Twin Towers disaster would have woken more people up. Osama bin Laden thinks this whole country is infidels because he learned of our culture by TV primarily. If he only knew the truth, he wouldn't hate us so bad. I appreciate your explanation on what an infidel is. If the USA practiced the faiths that it's people profess, families would be larger and stronger, abortion would be illegal, the media would have standards of taste, pornography would be illegal as it is HIGHLY destructive to the society(proved many times over the course of history) Even though I don't agree with what the terrorists are doing, I have to believe they wouldn't be so severe with the US if we got back to our core values. And no, pornography should not be protected by freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is an important value for various functions of society and law and order. But common sense dictates that pornography is not in that category. How did Hell take over our courts? My answer: The sexual revolution of the 60's and 70's in this country, so displeased God that He gave us a large quantity of buffoons in high places....the Supreme Court that "legislated" legalized abortion...the politically astute can figure out the rest. I do believe that God is love. The evil brought about by the bad leaders we got for a punishment will eventually bring us back to God. I see it happening already. People want goodness for their children. God's motivation is never malicious. He always brings good out of things that are so evil. In the end, God has to be victorious. Hey Engin, I will pray for your country. Please pray for mine. Bob
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Post by enginterzi on Jul 8, 2007 5:23:36 GMT -5
Bob,
i like your opinions and thank you for the friendly conversation.i sent you a PM to add my thoughts on this subject.i am sending by a PM because i do not want to change the subject of the thread anymore.
i will pray for your country,and thank you for praying for my country.
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