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Post by Johnny Edwards on Nov 1, 2010 17:14:20 GMT -5
Logos can mean anything from a divine utterance to the principle of cosmic reason that orders and governs the universe.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Nov 1, 2010 17:17:43 GMT -5
"The Gospel of John, most scholars view it as fudamentally not a portrait of the historical Jesus, but a profound meditation on his theological significance."
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Nov 1, 2010 17:23:37 GMT -5
"Almost universally, independent scholars studying the Qur'an and Hadith, have concluded that the Islamic scripture was not revealed to just one man, but was a compilation of later redactions and editions formulated by a group of men, over the course of a few hundred years. The Qur'an which we read today is not that which was in existence in the mid-seventh century, but is a product of the eighth and ninth centuries. It was not conceived in Mecca or Medina, but in Baghdad. It was then and there that Islam took on its identity and became a religion. Consequently, the formative stage of Islam was not within the lifetime of Muhammad but evolved over a period of 300 years."
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Nov 1, 2010 17:30:26 GMT -5
7.Is wine consumption good or bad?
A.O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
B.(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
C.Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).
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Post by Bob Paradis on Nov 1, 2010 19:46:54 GMT -5
"Logos" is not something I am familiar with. I am not a Greek scholar or theologian or historian. The existence of "Logos" in Greek theology does not preclude God from fulfilling salvation history with Himself in the person of Jesus. The synopsis of all the Old and New Testament is "Jesus, the Christ" It's all about our God, Jesus!
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Post by enginterzi on Nov 2, 2010 3:08:30 GMT -5
Regarding John. The gospel does not mention the authors identity. The gospel implies that it's author, unlike Peter, James, and John, did not die a martyrs death. Many historians think it likely that Herod Agrippa executed the apostle John along with his brother James about 41-43CE. Some critics propose that another John, prominent in the church at Ephesus about 100 CE, is the author. Except that he was called "John the Elder", we know nothing that would connect him with the Jahannine writings. Lacking definite confirmation of traditional authorship, scholars regard the work as anonymous. source pg. 237 The New Testament: a students introduction 6th edition Stephen L. Harris. Nobody here said that John himself wrote the gospel?  ? Not sure what your argument is except to try and disprove John which has never been done. It has been proven to show Jesus in a more spirtual way rather than show him through his works as the other 3 gospels do. The works are associated with the "Beloved Disciple". Another quote from pg 216 "The writer, who does not indentify himself, states that his version of Jesus' life is based on testimony of an unnamed "beloved diciple". Scholars classify the work as anonymous." if it is not written by John then we are supposed to believe that it was written according to John by depending on what? depending on the people who wrote these?; " This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true." my argument is that this source's author is unknown and it can not be proven that this Gospel is according to John.for sure the author who wrote this was influenced by the Greek Theology. if John was the source of this Gospel then it would not have been much different than the other Gospels esspecially on the most critical infos. as i clearly quoted that the words that were written in this Gospel was written before Jesus by the Greek Theologians. LOGOS en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LogosLogos (pronounced /ˈloʊɡɒs/, /ˈlɒgɒs/ (UK), or /ˈloʊgoʊs/ (US); Greek λόγος logos) is an important term in philosophy, psychology, rhetoric and religion. Originally a word meaning " word," " speech," " account," or " reason," it became a technical term in philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus (ca. 535–475 BC), who used the term for the principle of order and knowledge. some quotes; Philo, Allegorical Interpretation III XXXI (96) (p. 61) ... But the shadow of God is his word [logos], which he used like an instrument when he was making the world. And this shadow, and, as it were, model, is the archetype of other things. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philo, On the Creation XLVIII (139) (p. 20) ... For God does not seem to have availed himself of any other animal existing in creation as his model in the formation of man; but to have been guided, as I have said before, by his own reason [logos] alone. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philo, On Husbandry XII (45) (p. 178) ... For God, like a shepherd and king, governs (as if they were a flock of sheep) the earth, and the water, and the fire, and the air and all the plants, and living creatures that are in them, whether mortal or divine; and he regulates the nature of the heaven, and the periodical revolutions of the sun and moon, and the variations and harmonious movements of the other stars, ruling them according to law and justice; appointing as their immediate superintendent, his own right reason [logos], his first-born son, who is to receive the charge of this sacred company, as the lieutenant of the great king; ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philo, Who Is the Heir of Divine Things XXVI (130) (p. 287) ... it was the untaught God who divides them, and that he divided all the natures of bodies and things one after another, which appeared to be closely fitted together and united by his word [logos], which cuts through everything; which being sharpened to the finest possible edge, never ceases dividing all the objects of the outward senses, ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philo, Who Is the Heir of Divine Things XXXVIII (188) (p. 292) ... if there is anywhere anything consolidated, that has been bound by the word [logos] of God, for this word is glue and a chain, filling all things with its essence. And the word, which connects together and fastens every thing, is peculiarly full of itself, having no need whatever of any thing beyond. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philo, Who Is the Heir of Divine Things XLVIII (234) (p. 296) ... the two natures are indivisible; the nature, I mean, of the reasoning power in us, and of the divine Word [logos] above us; but though they are indivisible themselves, they divide an innumerable multitude of other things. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heraclitus, fr. 1 (p. 19)Although this Logos is eternally valid, yet men are unable to understand it -- not only before hearing it, but even after they have heard it for the first time. That is to say, although all things come to pass in accordance with this Logos , men seem to be quite without any experience of it -- at least if they are judged in the light of such words and deeds as I am here setting forth. ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Diogenes Laertius, VII, 136 (pp. 240-241) In the beginning [God] was by himself; he transformed the whole of substance through air into water, and just as in animal generation the seed has a moist vehicle, so in cosmic moisture, God, who is the seminal reason [logos] of the universe remains behind in the moisture ... |
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Post by enginterzi on Nov 2, 2010 3:32:24 GMT -5
That link said that the author of the Quran is unknown Engin just like most history books. They were originally oral an later became written down history. Nobody knows the authors of the Quran. it was influenced by God. Divine inspiration. Who do you think physically wrote it? you did not ask me the source of the Quran,you asked me the person who wrote it down.the link that you provided says that ; That leaves us to our third option: God wrote it! Johnny, i seriously do not know in what else way i can explain to you but let me try again. after Jesus' departure there had been a chaos.Christians were being persecuted everywhere.even the disciples were in disagrement with eachother etc.there were many different Gospels,just search and you will see how many different testimonies there. but about Quran there had been no chaos since Muslims ruled where they lived and it was an established religion.the nation was ruled by the Quran.people had them in their memories and even TODAY millions of Muslims can recite the FULL QURAN by their memories.i mean if there was more than 1 Quran today or there were arguments between the Muslims about it then your claim could make sense but there is no such thing.the nations of Islam have been following the same message for 1.400 years without any disagreement.there are disagrements about the sayings and acts of the Prophet between the Muslims but never ever about the Quran. you studied religions in college? if that is what they taught you then they taught you wrong my friend.Prophet ruled his people for 23 years with the same Quran,he recited and his followers wrote it down on the leathers and with these verses he ruled his nation for 23 years! i mean how could there be another or a different Quran than the one that Muslims practiced for 23 years under the supervision of the living Prophet? i mean even being ridicilous should have its limits  here are your answers Johnny; www.islam101.com/quran/preservedQ.htm SO IN SHORT PROPHETS FOLLOWERS PHYSICALLY WROTE IT DOWN THE QURAN UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE PROPHET HIMSELF ,unlike our subject  |
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Post by enginterzi on Nov 2, 2010 3:35:46 GMT -5
Logos can mean anything from a divine utterance to the principle of cosmic reason that orders and governs the universe. so do you HONESTLY mean that you do not see anything in common with the Gospel of John and the following Greek Theologies except the word "LOGOS"? i have no words to say! some quotes; Philo, Allegorical Interpretation III XXXI (96) (p. 61) ... But the shadow of God is his word [logos], which he used like an instrument when he was making the world. And this shadow, and, as it were, model, is the archetype of other things. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philo, On the Creation XLVIII (139) (p. 20) ... For God does not seem to have availed himself of any other animal existing in creation as his model in the formation of man; but to have been guided, as I have said before, by his own reason [logos] alone. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philo, On Husbandry XII (45) (p. 178) ... For God, like a shepherd and king, governs (as if they were a flock of sheep) the earth, and the water, and the fire, and the air and all the plants, and living creatures that are in them, whether mortal or divine; and he regulates the nature of the heaven, and the periodical revolutions of the sun and moon, and the variations and harmonious movements of the other stars, ruling them according to law and justice; appointing as their immediate superintendent, his own right reason [logos], his first-born son, who is to receive the charge of this sacred company, as the lieutenant of the great king; ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philo, Who Is the Heir of Divine Things XXVI (130) (p. 287) ... it was the untaught God who divides them, and that he divided all the natures of bodies and things one after another, which appeared to be closely fitted together and united by his word [logos], which cuts through everything; which being sharpened to the finest possible edge, never ceases dividing all the objects of the outward senses, ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philo, Who Is the Heir of Divine Things XXXVIII (188) (p. 292) ... if there is anywhere anything consolidated, that has been bound by the word [logos] of God, for this word is glue and a chain, filling all things with its essence. And the word, which connects together and fastens every thing, is peculiarly full of itself, having no need whatever of any thing beyond. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philo, Who Is the Heir of Divine Things XLVIII (234) (p. 296) ... the two natures are indivisible; the nature, I mean, of the reasoning power in us, and of the divine Word [logos] above us; but though they are indivisible themselves, they divide an innumerable multitude of other things. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heraclitus, fr. 1 (p. 19)Although this Logos is eternally valid, yet men are unable to understand it -- not only before hearing it, but even after they have heard it for the first time. That is to say, although all things come to pass in accordance with this Logos , men seem to be quite without any experience of it -- at least if they are judged in the light of such words and deeds as I am here setting forth. ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Diogenes Laertius, VII, 136 (pp. 240-241) In the beginning [God] was by himself; he transformed the whole of substance through air into water, and just as in animal generation the seed has a moist vehicle, so in cosmic moisture, God, who is the seminal reason [logos] of the universe remains behind in the moisture ... |
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Post by enginterzi on Nov 2, 2010 3:39:59 GMT -5
"The Gospel of John, most scholars view it as fudamentally not a portrait of the historical Jesus, but a profound meditation on his theological significance." his theological significance that is portrayed of that Gospel is borrowed.by not seingthe truth one is not following Jesus but becoming the person who will be directed his words on the expected day; Mathew 7-22,23 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.' GOD's greatest law; "THE LORD (YAHWEH) OUR GOD,THE LORD IS ONE" |
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Post by enginterzi on Nov 2, 2010 4:26:14 GMT -5
7.Is wine consumption good or bad? A.O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90). B.(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15). C.Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25). Johnny, thanks giving me chance to give you the education about the Islam that you did not have correctly in your college. as i have mentioned before that Quran came to very ignorant people who were doing evil things during that time.the Quran verses came to educate a nation in a spiritual way.they were not religiously learnt people unlike the children of Israel,so their transformation had to take sometime by letting them to think about what was ordered.so that they would not be only following the orders but also understanding why they were necessary. there is one more verse concerning the Gambling and strong drink and it came first; 2.219 .THEY WILL ASK thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring." And they will ask thee as to what they should spend [in God's cause]. Say: "Whatever you can spare." In this way God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might reflect. above GOD first makes them think and understand why these things need to be prohibited even though there is some fun in them.GOD sent us on this earth to test us and many of the prohibited things have their own attraction so that even though we desire them we control ourselves to deserve what is better than these which is the eternal life.by saying that i must also mention that GOD did not prohibite us anything that we need,HE prohibits only what is extreming for us. then to this uneducated nation GOD prohibited the gambling and strong drink directly after creating negative incidents about these prohibited things,so that they understand that the advice which was given earlier was right; 90. O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful. 91. The Shaitan only desires to cause enmity and hatred to spring in your midst by means of intoxicants and games of chance, and to keep you off from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. Will you then desist? then let us come to the verses that you do not understand because of not coming into the subject with a good intention.GOD created everything according to HIS intention to create them.for example GOD is able to make even animals to be able to speak.or if GOD wanted HE could have allowed us to do whatever we want to.GOD prohibited us many things just to test our obedience.so to judge the heavenly things by considering them with the earthly things is a mistake.it is same as saying like "HOW COME WE CAN HAVE AN ETERNAL LIFE IN HEAVEN WHILE WE BORN AND DIE OVER HERE ON THIS EARTH" so just because the wine makes you drunk on this earth it does not mean that GOD will create it's effects in the same way that HE created to test us over here.so what GOD forbids is disobedience,not that GOD is unable to create the wine without its negative results; 56- 18. With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: 19. No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication i hope that you this time understand one of my posts. |
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Post by enginterzi on Nov 2, 2010 5:13:06 GMT -5
"Logos" is not something I am familiar with. I am not a Greek scholar or theologian or historian. The existence of "Logos" in Greek theology does not preclude God from fulfilling salvation history with Himself in the person of Jesus. The synopsis of all the Old and New Testament is "Jesus, the Christ" It's all about our God, Jesus! yes with every century it had developped as i see that not the same things have been said all the time but there are additions.but these are clearly related; ... But the shadow of God is his word [logos], which he used like an instrument when he was making the world. ********************************************** his own right reason [logos], his first-born son ********************************************** this Logos is eternally valid ********************************************** all things come to pass in accordance with this Logos ********************************************** about the salvation part we must look at Horus,Mithra etc gods to understand that part.i do not know why such a GREAT MESSENGER had to be involved in such mythologies and theologies. about Horus; " I have given bread to the hungry man and water to the thirsty man and clothing to the naked person and a boat to the shipwrecked mariner." about Jesus; " For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me..." Matthew 25:35-36 about Horus; " I am Horus in glory...I am the Lord of Light...I am the victorious one...I am the heir of endless time...I, even I, am he that knoweth the paths of heaven." about Jesus; “ Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12 "I am a star which goes with thee and shines out of the depths." - Mithraic saying "I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star." - Jesus, (Rev. 22:16) ( St. Gregory, fourth century bishop of Nazianzus, writing to St. Jerome (Hieron. ad. Nep.): " A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated to them." quoted by C. F. Volney, The Ruins (Boston, 1872) p. 177) " what circumstances and necessity dictated to them " ? such as preaching to the Gentile a different Jesus who would be similar to their gods and theologies? looking for the truth is the way to follow Jesus. |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Nov 2, 2010 11:16:29 GMT -5
Your prophet was illiterate? It said only God could have wrote it. Who is the only person that could inspire the new Testament? Jesus/God. Your explaining it right but if your trying to say that my New Testament is based off of myths then your Quran has mythological basis's in it too. The Epic of Gilgamesh was written before the old testament which is part of your religion. Therefor the same myths could possibly have effected your religion same as mine? My personal opinion is that you can find the word of God in more than just your or my text. God isn't limited to certain things. Nobody can fully picture God or what he is. He has never let anyone seem him fully. And the contradictions pointed out in the Quran is arguable. But they still remain there. How come it says one thing in that spot then has to clear it up later??? The author who wrote it had to try an fix the inconsistencies just like the authors made the Bible work as a whole. God gave the writers brains to use not to be dumb an not know what they were doing. Your mind is not open at all and your only intention is to try an sway people from their belief that Jesus was God. Which you have the right to do so. But I have the right to speak what I think also. Alot of myths that you find similiarities in the Quran or Bible were written before the Quran or Bible were even a book. Think about that it's not just my book, but your book too. How could your prophet have overseen the writing of a book when he couldn't read? |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Nov 2, 2010 11:19:51 GMT -5
I can find things that don't add up in anything I look at Engin. It comes down to what you believe in at the end anyways. Only God will know when he judges us.
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Post by enginterzi on Nov 2, 2010 13:39:08 GMT -5
Your prophet was illiterate? It said only God could have wrote it. Who is the only person that could inspire the new Testament? Jesus/God. The Gospel of Jesus is GOD's teaching to Jesus,not Jesus' inspiration.he said Father taught him and gave him a commandment to bring HIS message to children of Israel. Your explaining it right but if your trying to say that my New Testament is based off of myths then your Quran has mythological basis's in it too. The Epic of Gilgamesh was written before the old testament which is part of your religion. Therefor the same myths could possibly have effected your religion same as mine? just because we Muslims believe in all Messengers and their messages it does not mean that we believe the origin of the message has survived till today without any accident.no single Muslim believes in today's Old & New testaments to be 100% original word of GOD. see this one is believed to be revealed to Moses; Deuteronomy 5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.
Jeremiah 8.8 8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?
And the contradictions pointed out in the Quran is arguable. But they still remain there. How come it says one thing in that spot then has to clear it up later???
there is no such thing.wine that is evil the one that makes you drunk = out of control on this earth.
the wine that is the reward in heaven has no ill effects.you mean that GOD would allow such thing in heaven? Johnny,all is fine.one may not believe and it is his-her own choice but all is fine.
The author who wrote it had to try an fix the inconsistencies just like the authors made the Bible work as a whole. God gave the writers brains to use not to be dumb an not know what they were doing.
you still do not see the differences Johnny.i do not blame anyone,i just state the historical events.
GOD gave PERFECT Torah to Moses but children of Israel had hard days and this verse in Deuteronomy 5 explains that today's Toah was written long after Moses that they even lost where Moses' grave was;
And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.
then GOD gave the PERFECT GOSPEL to Jesus but Christianity did not grow in calm conditions.thedisciples were killed,tortured etc and that is why the faith become up to the anonymous sources such as the Gospel of John.
the hard conditions of the development of the Christianity was confessed even by the Christian leaders;
(St. Gregory, fourth century bishop of Nazianzus, writing to St. Jerome (Hieron. ad. Nep.):
"A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated to them."
quoted by C. F. Volney, The Ruins (Boston, 1872) p. 177)
again i have the letters of st.Eusobius and he denies some parts of today's New Testament,which became official New Testament (some years after his letter in 325 nicean council).
then GOD gave the Quran to Prophet Muhammad and he ruled his nation by Quran for 23 years.whenever the Quran revealed he recited and his followers wrote them on leathers.this is the most obvious fact and there is no argument about it.
once again,he was right there by his nation as a leader for 23 years.what makes anyone think that revelation was different? the time that Prophet died along with the leather Quran writings there were estimated 10.000 people who could recite the Quran from their memories and all these people lived together side by side without any occupation,threat or persecutions applied on them.
Your mind is not open at all and your only intention is to try an sway people from their belief that Jesus was God. Which you have the right to do so. But I have the right to speak what I think also. Alot of myths that you find similiarities in the Quran or Bible were written before the Quran or Bible were even a book. Think about that it's not just my book, but your book too.
hmm ok Johnny,my mind is not open just because i oppose a 4. century doctrine about Jesus.
How could your prophet have overseen the writing of a book when he couldn't read?
Johnny,you dont follow me.i put a link for you and i wrote here is your answer.obvious that you did not read but i quote for you;
"Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet"
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Post by enginterzi on Nov 2, 2010 13:41:54 GMT -5
I can find things that don't add up in anything I look at Engin. It comes down to what you believe in at the end anyways. Only God will know when he judges us. Johnny,i will stop discussing about this subject as i realise that denying that Jesus is god is an offense to you,same as calling him god is an offense to me (since i believe in one GOD whom you call Father). |
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? Not sure what your argument is except to try and disprove John which has never been done. It has been proven to show Jesus in a more spirtual way rather than show him through his works as the other 3 gospels do. The works are associated with the "Beloved Disciple".
