Evolution Vs. Creation

[enginterzi]

about Jesus Christ we,Muslims believe that he was born from a Virgin Mother who is Mariam or Mary as you call.according to our referance she the best among the women were created ever and women will be created till the end.we believe all the miracles that he has done by the power of GOD.the only discussion between Christians and Muslims about him is his nature.Christians believe in his divine nature but we dont.we take him as one of the greatest messenger that GOD almighty has sent ever.we believe in Bible too,we believe that our CREATOR has created the life and kept in touch with us by HIS messengers.there cannot be a life without rules.or there can not be a school that students make their own rules according to how they would like to.the main problem is that if one believes in GOD or not.if he believes in GOD then he must understand that GOD has showed us both ways that one is leaded by evil and other by goodness.about one fact i guess we all agree that every living thing has died and will die.there is no eternal life on this earth.our lives should have better purpose than eating,drinking,armwrestling and having sex.about power,it totally belongs to GOD for sure.even the greatest kings are waiting their time to be judged.personally i prefer to have a Christian friend than having a none believer.because Christians believe that one day there will be a judgement day.so this fear keeps them away from being harmful.of course that there are harmful Christians and Muslims too but i can not generalise them.according to my belief i can sit and eat with a believer of Bible but its forbidden to me to do same with a none believer.i can marry a believer of Bible but im not allowed to marry a none believer.according to our belief believers of Bible receives mercy from GOD,but a none believer doesnt.

[Ryan Thames]

Thats excellent,

I have a question for thos ewho dont believe in god and do believe in evolution.

Where do morals come from? our knowledge of right and wrong (good and evil)?

What or who says there is nothing wrong with me brutally murdering someone as long as i dont get caught by the law. there absolutly nothing wrong with it other than its illegal. If there is no God then what is wrong with a 40 year old man raping and /or molesting a 4 year old, besides the fact that it is illegal? According to evolution and atheism. we are no better a creature (accidental blob of protoplasm) than a dog and we should not be bound by law whatsoever.becuase there is nothing that seperates us from them but a thumb. we should be able to kill who we want and rape who we want. anything thing that our mind in our nature can come up with.

now my opinoin is that is just a sick way of thinking.

According to the bible man and animals were created totally different he SPOKE (moleculer structure) to the land to create the animals, to the sea to create the fish, but he spoke to himself to create man therefore we are created in the image of god. this is why we have a concious we have a spirit and Lions and tigers , and bears do not. No dogs go to heaven.

[enginterzi]

i totally agree about what you have written.

[Ryan Thames]

Thank You ;D

it is greatly appreciated

But of course to those who are more highly educated you and i are inferior becuase we believe in myths that science cant prove. ....that is one of the biggest lies the devil has conjured up and people bought it.

Here is a secret I dropped out of high school in 9th grade i had horrible grades since 4th grade when my father died. I slept through school when i wasnt reading my bible illegally in public school. I got my G.E.D. a month after i dropped out, then i went to College for 2days realized that just aint for me.....point being id rather have my GED and be able to see the truth of God than to have a doctrate in theology and not have a clue. Whats happens here is people spend big bucks in college and are faced with so-caled "facts" and they believe them. after all if i spent that kind of money on school and were told believable lies it sure would be hard for me to want to acknowledge i wasted my money. I did however go to bible college but i didnt go there very long i had to get a job and i couldnt do both and the school ended up shuting down anyway. and the classes i took taught me how to manage my finances, how to be a biblical leader according to the life of christ and counseling. None of my classes were directly about the bible, why? i didnt have of time in the school for it like i said they closed down. I know what i know about the bible becuase i have been seeking diligently for the truth of it, and the face of God ( and i have a computer that helps me look up scripture ;D )since i was 12 on my own, becuase it was my hearts desire, not becuase i was told i had to. I was forced to be taught in evolution< talk about your pushing religion. It is law if teachers in public school dont teach evolution they will be fired. If they bring a bible to school or where a cross around there neck, they will be fired. not in the name of allah or buddah or in the name peace of the nice way to preach the gospel in silence. But in the name of communism and secular humanism.

Evolution is a religion. Something people put faith in. Without actual physical evidence.

Did you know that one of the founding fathers of america was a muslim when he came over here???
He later converted to Christianity.

Physical evidence that Jesus existed.
I believe, Jesus made it a point not to have branded anything he made as a carpenter or actually write anything himself he had people record his miracles and his teachings. i believe he did this so that we would not have physical evidence. This would take away from us having to have faith in him.

John 8:12-20
12. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13. The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14. Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
20. These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

There is alot to be said in this one scripture.

1)Jesus acknowledge that if one man speaks of him then it is easily dismissed. or if one man in court tells a story it isnt very credible evidence but when more than one man gives witness to an event or person then it is more credible. Jesus made sure people saw him and he made sure significant people saw him. Such as King Herod, Also a roman governer saw him, a roman centurion witnessed his crucifixion and declared surely this is the son of God When Jesus died the earth shook and the veil in temple (wich was not easy to tear) was torn. After his death 500 hundred eye witnesses saw his resurrection which confirms that he is God and the son of God. The hebrews were xcellent record keepers as i mentioned before. they have record of the lineage of david and out of that comes mary who gave birth to a son as a virgin. Wich was prophecied hundreds of years beforehand.

2) verse 12 states "I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

This says that if you follow Jesus as he is the light of the world you can then see the truth of the lies of satan and of people. people will mock you by saying things like "It is an arogant man that says he knows the intent of God"

3) the pharisees did not believe Jesus was God nor did they believe he was the messiah. But Jesus confronts them on this and acuses them of not even knowing the God they serve much less knowing his son. They knew about God and they knew the law and they tried to keep the law the best they could but they didnt understand that the law was given to show us that we could not keep it and that we need a savior.

4) How could these pharisees have had this conversation/argument with a man who didnt even exist? world history tells you the pharisees in the arguement existed. as well as the exsistance of Jesus.

5) It is Historical that Jesus taught in the temple along with the other Rabbis.

6) lastly these scriptures also indicate the Trinity (Father,Son,Holy Spirit) Not 3 gods but one God with three persons, as one man can be The Father of a Child and the Son of his Father And the Husband to a wife.

i know some people will want to argue or discuss my 1-6 points but that is ok. ;D Im open for it. Im not perfect and perhaps i didnt explain something correctly. And im sure i may have offended some one but that is not my intent please do not take offense to it.

Thank you for listening or reading
Ryan

[simon]

Ryan why can’t there just be the belief that God made everything including the development of the planets and the evolutionary process, why is it necessary to try and shove it all into quasi mortally rational context such as the bible does with claims that anything to the contrary is wrong or placed there by the devil to test our faith? If god could do all of the things that you claim he can, why could he not have created everything including the process of evolution? What is so wrong with the realization that we are mere mortal men that have desperately failed in our attempts to try and understand the scope of our existence within our simplistic and limited comprehension?

It is very easy to point out where the bible contradicts itself, go to any atheist website and they will quote you passage after passage straight from the bible that are logically in direct opposition of each other.

“Where do morals come from” that is almost a chicken and the egg question, morals came from humans witnessing the atrocities of mankind and coming to the assessment that certain things are right and certain things are wrong, those people in turn took those perceptions and claimed they came down from god in order to add as much fear as possible to the masses that might think about violating those laws of man.

Much lower life forms than humans have learned to establish order, do’s and don’ts do you really think that humans devoid of a couple of tablets allegedly from god could not fathom right and wrong, what were they doing prior to the 10 commandments, were they just walking down the street killing each other without consequence or without anyone thinking it was inappropriate?

I do not judge people by their, color, their race, their religion or lack their of, their nationality, their sexual orientation or beliefs, I judge people by their actions and nothing more, and even then I always keep in the back of my head that maybe I do not understand thoroughly why they acted as they did. I would certainly never judge or chose as a friend anyone by weather or not they believe in a god or practice a particular religion. “Whether or not you are on the side of right really depends upon where you are standing at the moment.” There are religiously affiliated pro life groups that are very much against abortion, in their attempts to exert their beliefs they have intentionally killed people with their premeditated bombings of abortion clinics, is this morally appropriate? Whom should know better the ramification of violating moral holdings than Catholic priests yet we all know what they have done, what should we think after their actions, that they knew it was wrong but they believed that through the legalities of the church they could do it and still be forgiven or that there truly is no supernatural punishment for their misdeeds? Many religions contend that only their beliefs are accurate and all others not of their faith are doomed to hell, so let’s say for the sake of argument that there is a correct religion is it appropriate that people that have devoted themselves to a righteous life be damned to hell because they were born into the wrong religion? Though I have not led a saintly life, I believe I have led a quality, giving and morally appropriate life, I have known many people that claim to be very religious that continue to violate what most religions hold as morally correct, (far in excess of anything I have ever done), but am I to believe that they will ascend to heaven while I burn in hell simply because I do not believe the teachings of the bible, attend church or submit to the direction of a religion?

I would prefer to believe that if there is a god he is a just, fair and intelligent god, one that would see the value in a human’s life rather than how they worshiped, one that fairly assesses his children and would take the non believer into heaven while the child molesting Catholic priest goes to hell, a god that would not be fooled by the hypocritical actions of those that claim to be a follower of him on Sunday while they violate mankind most every other day. The very worse I can be in the eyes of a just god is a good person that was wrong, if god really needed our capitulation and worship so badly that he would take murders and child molester into heaven because they worshipped him and begged his forgiveness, while I go to hell, well then so be it, as I have no desire to be part of plan such as that.

During the course of all of these conversations I took a moment to reflect on what I really believe beyond all of the well postured arguments and my conclusion was that the only person that is in control of my life is me, I expect no miracles or intervention and subsequently the quality of my life is firmly within my control in as much as anyone controls anything in this world. I am vastly more concerned with how I will be judged by my family and my true friends when my time has come, whatever any other person or being thinks of my life will be of no consequence beyond those that I hold dear. Having said all of this I am still living my life one perceived priority at a time I have many things that I need to do and some things that I owe more timely responses on regardless of how difficult the tasks have proven to be. Subsequently I still owe it to my friends, my family and myself to concert more effort into completing these tasks and improving the quality of life for those that matter most to me. I will continue to read and post on this board but for right now I need to focus myself on more important endeavors.

Ryan you have been given control of your life I would suggest that you do not waste it justifying anything to anyone outside of those that matter to you, expend your time achieving what it is you want not substantiating why it is you want it. As futile as you and I discussing this has been I have enjoyed it and I hope that your life runs in a fashion of your liking and that you never have need to call upon or test the foundations of your beliefs.

[Ryan Thames]

No matter what you think, you are not in control of the next breathe you take. That is given to you by the grace of God.

Last night my sisiter died i heard her maoning and gasping for air over the phone. and when i got to her house she was gone. She was fine just before she went to bed she slept for maybe 20 minutes then her life was over.

tonight may very well be your last night, are you prepared for that? For what might happen on the other side. If i am right and you are not Gods grace was extended through the power of the blood of Christ and it will be then too late becuase you denied it.

If i were God and i gave my son and you spit in my face by not recieving my love for you through the sacrifice of my son, you would not come into my house for fellowship.

I do not create a thought of who god is in my heart just to make my self feel better. She didnt know the secrets and mysteries of the bible. and the complicatios of the sacrificial system. but she believed jesus died on a cross for her soul and she truly loved God. And by the power of the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ and the faith of a child she is in heaven.

God gave us the ten commandments not to fear anything for moral advancment that is idiocy. But he gave it to us for us to identify that we are not holy and that we cannot keep the commandments God is Holy and a Just God and he says that sin can not enter the holiness of Heaven, and his presence. According to the tencommandments we are all going to hell, becuase we have sinned. Imagin a chain holding you all it takes is one to break it and drop you. But through Gods grace and mercy he gives us all an oppotunity to be saved through the grace of his son.

Please listen to what i am saying and consider it deeply, you have been taught the most horrible lies. you are looking at the bible and God the wrong way. You look at the commandments as guidlines it isnt. God created us to worship him. not anything else of course he gives us obligations such as children and families but we are to tend to that in a manner of worshiping him. What if your wrong and i am right? really truly think about it. Your soul lies in the balance. Its not a matter of Doing good things or right things its not about being a good or bad person, its about knowing a true and living god not a story book. ask him and he will speak to you. but dont expect him to speak to you the way you think he should. I am not refering to a religion in wich you do good things to obtain righteousness there is no way you canmake yourself righteous.

Why cant evolution be true and god have created it?
Becuase it goes against what the bible teaches. That teaches that there is no such thing as sin and no need for a savior and all that.

So basiclly your saying there is nothing wrong with murder or molestation and all that? Its just something made up by man? Ultimatly it is ok for me to be a primal beast and kill the next person that looks at me wrong? or maybe the girl next door shes hot man im gonna go kill her husband and take her for myself.

Why do evolutionist want to justy this behavior being as that we are just going to our roots. and being a primal beast. that is sick.

If i am right about my faith then i am going to heaven through the power of the blood of Christ. If you are right then nothing.

If i am right about my faith then those who do not give their life to him and become a new creation (not pray five times a day and say a rosary and be a boy scout and give to the poor and help the needy, but to just simply give their life to him and be reborn) If they do not then they will spend eternity in hell and a lifetime being unfullfilled in life and always searching for that something to fill that void in their life. But if you are right then nothing. Id rather not take that chance. but even still it isnt about chance becuase it is real.

In this time of horror in my family of my sisters death I find in Christ a peace that suppasses all understanding. Though i dont understand these things. He is faithfull and just to bring this peace to my whole family.

Think about it your family depends on it. If i am right and you chose to not believe then that will affect your family as well and they will want to follow their daddy just becuase that is what a child does. And your children will also look for a fullfillment in their life that their daddy cant explain to them becuase he chose not to believe.

If i am wrong then your children will still search for an answer to the unfullfillment in their lives and noone will have an answer there wont be one.

God Bless You,
Ryan

[simon]

No, that is not at all what I was saying I am saying that murder and molestation should not be tolerated by anyone so why does your god allow these people to do these things, why does he allow these people to do awful unspeakable things but then allow them to repent and be accepted into heaven while those that do not believe as he commands, but that have never harmed anyone will rot in hell? There is no justice in a plan such as that. I am very much prepared to die because I have done the things necessary to protect my loved ones that is my responsibility not wasting my time trying to please an imaginary man or adhere to the controls of a fictional book.

The bible is written by man in order exert control manipulate the masses and explain that which man cannot fathom, true belief of a higher power comes from within and does not need fables to substantiate it.

I am sorry for your loss and I am glad that you have something to find the strength to cope with it.

I do not need anyone or anything to make me strong there is a great freedom in knowing that you, your family and friends are the only people looking out for you, staunch Christians die of freak accidents and illnesses just as often as the rest of us do, so we all have the equal amount of control over the remaining portion of reality. I choose to take control of that portion, I choose not to waste my life believing that there is a supernatural power that is righting wrongs protecting the innocent or looking out for me. There is a saying that a wary person is never surprised by danger. What this means is that when people get caught in obviously dangerous situations often they got there because the believed they were safe.

Why do religious people think that if you do not believe as they do that you must be running around breaking every law of man? I have lived a better life than over half of the people I know that claim to be good Christians should I really aspire to be like them?

I would kill or die for my children, and I really do not want them to waste their lives thinking they are divinely protected, that if they fall in line their lives will be blessed to the point of being better than everyone else, nor that regardless of how horribly they live their lives all they have to do is ask for forgiveness and they will be absolved for the pain they have inflicted on others. My children will not want for answers they will know that the answers are within themselves and the people that they hold dear, that is true empowerment that is true enlightenment, knowing that your life is what you make of it not clinging to the myths of primitive civilizations because it is easier to fall in line.

I am going to ask a favor of you that I must insist upon, please do not speak of my children and how their lives will be, that is not your place nor do I care for it.

Again you have my most heartfelt condolences on your loss.

[Ryan Thames]

Thank you for your respect and i apologize if i have offend you by refering to your children.

You dont have a clue why christians do what they do.
God doesnt promise that life wil be grand and wonderful if you give your life to him. But due to the fact that you insist upon being so close minded and deny the truth, I must conclude this discussion. And i pray for you and your family.

Thank you for the intreging conversation it has been informative and educational. I thank you for giving me things to look up and study. When you decide you want to hear the truth about christianity let me know maybe we can strike it up again.


Again i apologize if i have offended you it is not my intent.

God Bless
Ryan

[Christopher Myers]

Ryan,
I have chosen to stay out of the evolution debate. But I must say with sincere respect that I have a profound respect in your faith most people who have lost their sister would not have the capacity to still engage in these debates.or they would misdirect their anger into them. Allthough I do not and will probably not ever see 100% eye to eye I have a profound respect for your faith. You also have my sincerest and dearest condolences. I wish peace to you and your family. And I really dont mean to assume or overstep my bounds but I want to make sure that you dont bury yourself into debate and study as to not take the time to mourn your sister. It is great to take solace that she is with God, but you are human and must not bottle up your emotions. it is OK to be mad and sad at the fact that someone so young is gone, and that she was taken away from you too soon. If I lost one of my brothers I would cry so long and so hard I would not be able to see the keyboard. You may be doing that and I dont mean to stick my nose where it does not belong. Just concerned sincerely. If you still go to the florida states you will receive a big and warm hug from me
Christopher Myers

[Ryan Thames]

Thank you Chris that is truly apreciated that means alot to me. As you see im trying to conclude the discussion at the moment later ill prolly fire it up prolly not as i see i am throwing pearls before swine as jesus said. I am mourning trust me i have done my fair share of crying the more important thing is though that i am obedient to God and the gospel be brought forth with the truest sincerity. I must make sure that the Gospel is presented to the fullest or i have not done enough. The bible says if we dont make sure people dont know the gospel and we dont preach it then there blood is on our hands. same situation if you know someone is going to get in a car and you know that when the car is cranked it will blow up and kill that person, if you know about the bomb and dont tell him and do everything in your power to keep him from turning that key, you are just as guilty as the person who planted the bomb. That is why we as Christians must be persistant and make sure it is known. whether they accept it or not is not our responsibility that must be left to the holy spirit. People will hate us and not agree and not understand and tel us to be silent but we must not be silent.

My sister is with the Lord based on her faith in the simplicity of the Gospel, not becuase she was a good person or a good mommy or good sister or a good daughter, she wasnt perfect she has falen in sin as the rest of us have but the blood has washed hers away becuase she had a repented heart. her dying isnt as important as her soul being in heaven. Her dying isnt as important as your soul or anyone elses we all must die but we have a choice where we spend eternity. If i hadnt been persistant, if i hadnt been out spoken of my faith, if i had been silent and hoped she would ask me were i obtain enlightenment, if i hadnt had a compassion for her soul she may not be with the lord. Maybe there is someone you know who is dying or getting old or anyone you know that just doenst know Jesus they are not promised tomorrow. as my sister died within an hour and totally unexpected, someone you know may not know the lord should you remain silent and them die tonight you then may probally wonder if you had just opened you mouth and not cared whether you offend someone or not they wouldve had the oppotunity to know him. and their soul be spared from a devils hell.

Let me tell you this i was fairly upset the other night. there is one scripture that has not yet come to life to me yet, in my personal life. I know of people who have been healed and raised from the dead and all that stuff.

Matthew 16:14. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Ive seen devils cast out of people, And i pray in toungues my self and i see people pray in toungues. Ive seen the sick recover. I couldnt find the scripture that says the dead shall be raised but that was my prayer the other night that we would see that miracle and the glory of God would be made manifest. I dont understand becuase i believe and this will never shake my foundation in my faith but i was upset and i asked God why doesnt this happen for me? He told me these things you dont understand. but you know what? If she was raised from the dead she would one day die again.

Salvation is the greatest of all miracles. people can be healed, they can be raised from the dead, they can stop time they can call down fire from heaven. but one day they will die, and the only thing that will matter is there relationship with Jesus Christ. What about your neighbor? does he/she know Jesus and how he died for him? ....he might die tomorrow. The bible says tomorrow is not promised to us.


Have you ever lied??...........that makes you a liar.

Have you ever thought about having sex with someone who wasnt your wife (whether your married or not)...................That makes you an adulterer

Have you ever stolen anything??.........that makes you a theif.

Lying theiving adulterers dont go to heaven. They cannot stand in the presence of a thrice holy God. This is only 3 of the ten commandments need i go furthur?? We are all guilty of sin and we need a savior. Jesus Christ was that sacrifice, he took the place of that lying theiving adulterous murder. Why?? Becuase he loves you and dont want you to spend eternity in hell. And he wants to give the greatest joy in all the universe,,,,,,, the privelage of worshiping that which is worthy of worship......Him. The bible says you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. What does that mean?? ask him.

God Bless Goodnight
Ryan

Chris your respect of my faith whether you agree or not, is deeply felt. Thank you. That is encouraging. (and the crown whispers "dont encourage him")

[Steven Lareau]

I finally sat through and read this entire debate start to finish. That was a lot to think about. Good arguments on both sides.

Ryan I am very sorry to hear about your loss.


Tony and I both went to the same high school and we were taught both theories (evolution and creation).

This was a good debate to read. A lot of thought from both sides. I am definately going to refer to this debate in the future. ;D

[Ryan Thames]

Thats great.
its very encouraging to hear that.

Thank you
Ryan

[Tony Carpenter]

Steve, they've extended the name of the school again

Rice Memorial Catholic High School

[Tony Carpenter]

Ryan, up at the top, when you were talking about atheists, did you mean anarchist, because I don't know a single atheist that believes we should go around killing each other. But I do know atheists that do.

[Tony Carpenter]

*anarchists that do