Who is God

[Brittany Bordelon]

Bible scholars have pondered the true meaning of Matthew 16:18 for a long time and have failed to reach a conclusion on the issue.

I believe that Jesus is the Rock, and the Foundation.
Peter, like the rest of us, is a pebble, or little stone.
The church, not any particular denomination, but THE church, is made up of many such pebbles, all of whom have put their faith in the Rock.

Peter means "a fragment of a rock." I believe that is very significant. Several fragments are in a rock. I believe this equates into Peter being "in the Rock," or "in Christ."

Also, verse 19 states "And I will give unto you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven..."
I believe "you" is referring to all Believers. The keys of heaven refers to symbols of authority, the privilege of preaching or proclaiming the Gospel, which is the privilege of every Believer.

I am aware that this very scripture has been the foundation of many disputes between Protestants and Catholics. I am certainly not trying to end this age old debate by offering my $0.02, but rather I am simply explaining my interpretation of scripture. I am definitely not a Bible scholar, but this made perfect sense to me.

[Bob Paradis]

brittanybordelon said:

Bible scholars have pondered the true meaning of Matthew 16:18 for a long time and have failed to reach a conclusion on the issue.

I believe that Jesus is the Rock, and the Foundation.
Peter, like the rest of us, is a pebble, or little stone.
The church, not any particular denomination, but THE church, is made up of many such pebbles, all of whom have put their faith in the Rock.

Peter means "a fragment of a rock." I believe that is very significant. Several fragments are in a rock. I believe this equates into Peter being "in the Rock," or "in Christ."

Also, verse 19 states "And I will give unto you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven..."
I believe "you" is referring to all Believers. The keys of heaven refers to symbols of authority, the privilege of preaching or proclaiming the Gospel, which is the privilege of every Believer.

I am aware that this very scripture has been the foundation of many disputes between Protestants and Catholics. I am certainly not trying to end this age old debate by offering my $0.02, but rather I am simply explaining my interpretation of scripture. I am definitely not a Bible scholar, but this made perfect sense to me.

"And I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock(Peter, meaning rock in Greek) I will build my Church. Brittany, it says what it says. You are twisting and adding words that aren't there. The Church was 1 Church for 1500 years. What gave Martin Luther the authority to start the FIRST Protestant Church in 1532?

Jesus is God. Why can't he use Peter as His rock? Peter's name appears 195 in the New Testament, more than all the rest put together.

Mathew16:19 Peter given keys to kingdom, power to bind and loose

Luke 22:32 Peter's faith will strengthen his brethren

John 21:17 Peter given Christ's flock as chief Shepard

Mark 16:7 An angel is sent to announce the Resurrection to Peter

Acts 1:13-26 Peter headed the meeting which picked successor to Judas

Acts 2:14 Peter lead Apostles in preaching at Pentecost

Acts 2:38-41 Peter receives first converts

Acts 3:6-10 Peter performs first miracle after Pentecost

Acts 5:1-11 Peter announces first punishment on Ananias and Sapphira

Acts 8:20 -21 Peter rebukes Simon the Magician for offering money for Apostolic power.

Acts 10:44-49 Peter receives revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church

Acts 15:7 Peter led the first council in Jerusalem


"I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."........Yes Brittany, the keys represent authority, the authority of Peter. AUTHORITY AND PRIVILEGE are 2 entirely different words that have nothing to do with each other. Peter has authority, we don't.

Why doesn't anyone care that there was only one Church until 1532? Why doesn't it bother anyone that a MAN, Martin Luther, started the 1st Protestant Church 1500 years after Jesus started the 1 Church? What gave Martin Luther the right? I just don't get it. Nowhere in scripture does it give a MAN the right to start a church.

God bless,


Bob

[Bob Paradis]

Acts 9:36-41 Peter restores Tabitha to life. Peter had the power to restore life. I don't think scripture speaks of anyone else in scripture, outside of Jesus, raising someone from the dead.

[Ryan Thames]

because we dont believe Jesus started the church that you speak of that split in 1532..... (the catholic church of today)


Calm down bob. this has been an educational and civilized debate.


When we (protestants) think of the church, that christ built. We think of the body of christ. the believers who believe in christ death burial and resurection.....we do not think of any man run orginization.

The origin of the "catholic church didnt occur until 312AD

We believe Martin Luther was simply the first of many to branch off in an attempt to get back to the truths and basics of christs teachings.


3,000th POST!!!

[Ryan Thames]

Bob,

No one is argueing whether or not peter was a prominent figure in the early church. But there is NO evidence that he ever went to rome... and we do not believe he was the pope nor was he the "rock". There isnt enough scripture to back that up

[Ryan Thames]

We believe the message of Cross of Christ is distorted when you place peter as the "rock" or the pope as the "vicar of christ".

How is one cleansed from sin? Is in not from faith in what christ did at the cross? Christ said "it is finished" Finished...is a powerful word. Peter does NOT have the authority to absolve sin.....Peter is NOT the judge who decides who enters heaven.

To say that Peter had such authority is to say that what christ did on the cross wasnt enough......and frankly thats blasphemy

[Ryan Thames]

here is an educational site

www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/catholic.htm

[Ryan Thames]

bobparadis said:

Mathew16:19 Peter given keys to kingdom, power to bind and loose

Luke 22:32 Peter's faith will strengthen his brethren

John 21:17 Peter given Christ's flock as chief Shepard

Mark 16:7 An angel is sent to announce the Resurrection to Peter

Acts 1:13-26 Peter headed the meeting which picked successor to Judas

Acts 2:14 Peter lead Apostles in preaching at Pentecost

Acts 2:38-41 Peter receives first converts

Acts 3:6-10 Peter performs first miracle after Pentecost

Acts 5:1-11 Peter announces first punishment on Ananias and Sapphira

Acts 8:20 -21 Peter rebukes Simon the Magician for offering money for Apostolic power.

Acts 10:44-49 Peter receives revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church

Acts 15:7 Peter led the first council in Jerusalem

Luke 22:32 Peter's faith will strengthen his brethren

Jesus was talking to a group of people in this passge.

John 21:17 Peter given Christ's flock as chief Shepard

Uh....no You totally took that out of context. Jesus was simply saying to peter. If you love me PROCLAIM THE GOOD NEWS ...in a nutshell

Mark 16:7 An angel is sent to announce the Resurrection to Peter The angel did not appear to pete...he appear to 3 women ( ithink it was 3)....so this isnt relevant....even if the angel did.....thats still irrelevant to the topic

Acts 1:13-26 Peter headed the meeting which picked successor to Judas
again.....whats the point? This doesnt mean Peter was the rock ....or the first pope......Jesus never said to peter that he has authority over other people...nor did he say "Peter, the rock, will be the one and only to lead meetings"

Acts 2:14 Peter lead Apostles in preaching at Pentecost
also...irrelevant....this gave no indication that he was "the leader" apointed by christ.....granted the others probly respected him as the leader....but it aint like he had absolute athourity. He took charge in this situation....so what?

Acts 2:38-41 Peter receives first converts
maybe i didnt read enough ...but that doesnt indicate they were the "first" converts......was peter not aa convert? or the rest of the apostles? Who converted them?.....Jesus perhaps?

Acts 3:6-10 Peter performs first miracle after Pentecost a miracle done in christ name...not the name of peter....not in the name of the catholic church....but in the name of christ

Acts 5:1-11 Peter announces first punishment on Ananias and Sapphira
This was not done by peter.....HE did not announce such "punishment". God smote them after their wrong had been addressed.....yes he used peter to address it...but it was not peter who announced this punishment.....peter wouldve been guilty of murder had that been the case

Acts 8:20 -21 Peter rebukes Simon the Magician for offering money for Apostolic power.
Irrelevant......to the subject

Acts 10:44-49 Peter receives revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church
Not revelation to "admit" gentiles. Christ gave him a revelation that the blood covered the sins of ALL men jew and gentile....Christ said HE (CHRIST) MADE THEM CLEAN .CHRIST (through the cross) admitted them into the kingdom...NOT PETER.....gentiles wouldve been accepted into the kingdom regaardless of whether or not peter got this revelation.

Acts 15:7 Peter led the first council in Jerusalem
so.........??

I could now accuse you as you accused my darlin of twisting scripture.

You have got to read the scripture IN context and not according to outside sources.

It is the scripture that would affirm catholic teachings....not catholic teachings that interpret scripture....it is vital that you dont get that backwards

[Ryan Thames]

so....since we have both seen each others arguement.....next subject

[Bob Paradis]

ryanthames said:

We believe the message of Cross of Christ is distorted when you place peter as the "rock" or the pope as the "vicar of christ".

How is one cleansed from sin? Is in not from faith in what christ did at the cross? Christ said "it is finished" Finished...is a powerful word. Peter does NOT have the authority to absolve sin.....Peter is NOT the judge who decides who enters heaven.

To say that Peter had such authority is to say that what christ did on the cross wasnt enough......and frankly thats blasphemy

You have a hangup with the title of vicar. A vicar usually means someone authorized to perform the functions of another. The Pope, Bishops, and priests have authority to perform the ministry Jesus laid out for them. Simple and harmless. Jesus ascended into heaven, so must use the hands of the priest to perform the physical aspects of the liturgy.

Jesus' death and resurrection was the salvation of all people who have ever lived or who will ever live. You constantly take things out of context Ryan. "It is finished" means just that. His passion was over. That has nothing to do with Peter's authority.

If you want to continue to downplay Peter's roll, I suggest that you contemplate what Peter's role is today. He is an eternal friend of Jesus. If you offend Peter, don't you think Jesus might get offended also? Do you think Jesus loves Peter? Jesus loves you also Ryan, but you are still on earth. You and I have a lot of suffering to do before we die, assuming we both live a long life. If we refuse to cooperate with God's grace, you and I could still die reprobate. The scariest thing you have said so far is that you don't like people. That was a large clue as to what your soul might be like. Jesus commanded us to love one another as he has loved us. Do you love Saint Peter? How about Saint Paul? Today is the Feast Day of Saints Peter and Paul. You nay not have known that. Blame that on Martin Luther. He had no authority to bastardize the Christian Faith. You won't answer that question of authority Ryan. You can't. You will just twist and distort words and scripture in your vain attempt. Do the 1st 1500 years of Christianity mean anything to you Ryan?

And yes Ryan, I love you, sight unseen, because you are child of God. If my love were perfect, I would die for you. I'm probably not at that level yet, but I'd like to think that I would. That would depend on how much grace God gave me at the particular moment. If it were to require courage, that could only come from God. Regardless, we must always strive to improve. I probably could show a lot more patience with you, because I am very familiar with the vile anti Catholic sentiment in some circles. It is sad to me that the most beautiful thing on earth, the Roman Catholic Church, is the most hated and contested organization on earth. Gee, I wonder if Satan has something to do with that?

God bless,

Bob

[Johnny Edwards]

Also at first there was NO church until Jesus started it an it doesn't say he started a catholic church or any other church for that matter. I took that to mean Jesus would teach Peter to be an early church father. Which is why he is given authority. But it say nothing about what kinda church just that he is the rock or starting point in the foundation of the church which could mean more than one thing it could mean that Peter is supposed to help lay the foundation for a church to be started.

[Bill Maenza]

In Greek the word used for Peter is Petros (masculine noun)
Petra is feminine
Petros mean "small stone" while Petra means "massive rock".
Some claim therefore that the "massive rock" upon which Christ willbuild His church must not refer to Peter the small stone but rather to Peters profession of faith or to Jesus. However, Jesus spoke Aramaic, which leaves no room for the Greek Petro/Petra distinction. In Aramaic, the word for rock is kepha. What Christ said was "You are Kepha (Rock) and upon this kepha (rock) I will build my church. In Aramaic, the identification of Peter as the rock is clear.

Why does the Greek usetwo different words for Peter and the rock? Because the Greek word for rock is feminine. It would not have been appropriate to give a man a feminine name. So the translator gave petra a masculine ending and rendered it Petroa. Since petros was a prexisting word meaning small stone, some of the original word-play was lost. But, no early Church Father, including those who spoke greek as their native tongue ever saw a distinction between Peter and the rock. They teach that Peter is the rock on which Christ built His Church.

[Johnny Edwards]

Well other things are taken out of context by the catholic church also. It nowhere says for me to pray to Mary, was she holy yes. But she isn't my GOD an she isn't worthy of me praying to her cause she was human an born into sin just like I was an Jesus is the ONLY person not born with sin. He was the ONLY one that was perfect. Also saything there is a purgatory is out of context because it nevers says purgatory in the bible. An ya'll take out of context for it to mean purgatory. Who named this thing purgatory??? A man. Not God a man. So its way out of context cause that is adding words to the bible.

Also this has nothing to do with worshipping the saints. They will get their reward in the end they don't need our worship God will give them way better than anything we could ever give them an it's a waste of time to worship them when we could be doing other things like helping people that need help.

An im waiting on the blessed sacrament subject bob

[Ryan Thames]

Bob,

I think your getting upset. If i didnt really love people i wouldnt do what i do. I was ssorta making a statement about why i dont think im called to be a pastor.

I understand why catholics believe what they believe.....i simply believe its wrong.

Id rather downplay Peters role than to downplay christs role.

And im sure both peter and christ would agree with that

God creates man....man exalts man....jesus dies for man so that we can have relationship with the father...but says to man you are the rock?.....that just aint right.....thats far more offensive to christ.....than me saying that peter isnt the rock.


If peter is the rock.......what gave paul the authority to rebuke him on the gospel he was preaching?

The revelation of the cross was givin to paul.....not peter. And paul rebuked peter. Was paul guilty of rebellion?Because he did what christ leed him to do?

as a christian i would put more emphasis on the revelation, that paul was given. Than any man himself........not paul...not peter.....but the revelation of christ did meant. which explaained further the revealation givin to better to preach the gospel to the jews.







Hey bill

[Ryan Thames]

Bob,

Calm down a bit man.

You sspeak what you believe and i will speak what i believe......


nothing personal here