attention to everyone

[leonard]

Sato is Osamu Sato an officer for AJAF. The President of AJAF's last name is Sakai. ;D

[simon]

Engin that is some great information thank you.

There is a bit of a difference between what you are doing and what the WAF will do, mostly because you are currently testing with an entity that you have a standing ongoing relationship with, your government, I am not insinuating the tests are not genuine I am sure they are WADA standard, what I am saying is that you have a steady regimen of testing with a government entity that you already have some form of an agreement with on your status within. These tests are not centered on an event so the ramifications of failing differ a bit from failing at the WAF event, one would assume.

When you became an athlete representing Turkey did you sign an agreement with them that included all of the details surrounding their drug testing policy?

The reason I ask all of these questions is because I am concerned that there is not enough information in the hands of the armwrestlers to understand what will transpire with the testing in Japan. If you pull on Saturday, win, test on Saturday, fail say because your testosterone is too high, though there are no traces of illicit substances in your system, then what happens, the awards have to be given out in a matter of hours, so does second place get your first in the ceremony, you get DQ’d, the public knows it and for weeks or months after the event you have to fight with the WAF to appeal your case? Say such as is the case of your friend you eventually prove that you were clean. Does the WAF formally announce the reversal of its findings regarding you, then does the second place armwrestler mail back your medal?

Certainly it is not impossible to assume what will happen regarding this testing, but why should anyone be left to assuming the process, why can it not be detailed?

Here in the US if I went to an event that I knew was going to test but I had no details on other than a WADA test, like our situation now, I would not sign a consent form to compete and be subjected to the rules they will impose upon me for testing if I did not know what the policy or the rules were.

What if the consent form to test that they ask you to sign gives no details of the consequences of testing positive, what if it is only a form that says that you consent to testing, you sign it along with the injury waiver you sign at most events, you compete, you test you fail, (high testosterone), now after the fact they tell you that you cannot have your prize money or award, you will be DQ’d, you cannot compete in their events for a year, the fact that you failed the test will be public information, and other than paying for another test on your own to disprove it you have no recourse to appeal your disqualification.

Now maybe it is just me but I would sue the promoter of the event and the venue into the ground for ruining my good name with no possible way for me to disprove their findings through an appeal or arbitration process, and I would win. All because they failed to properly detail the terms and sanctions of a failed test, so are people expected to fly all the way to Japan and only at that moment when they get their they badge find out what the WAF policy and ramifications of failing a WADA drug test are? Now with this possible FILA affiliation I am sure FILA has a detailed policy that you must agree to, maybe that is what we will use at the WAF, but who knows I have not seen anything other than we will be administering a WADA test and some about to whom, knowing it is a WADA test does not explain the administrative process that comes with it.

Don’t get me wrong I think testing is a excellent step, I am not personally using anything illicit, just supplements available at GNC, some of those may cause me to fail a WADA test so I will stop taking them, I just personally feel as do the majority of the armwrestlers out there that I have spoken to that testing in Japan is not much more than a rumor, and if the information about the testing details are not provided to them until the are in Japan that the WAF will have sprung the test on them.

[simon]

Karen

Sorry for my vulgar abbreviation of the events down to people I know of, it is hard to continually type conversations on this subject and keep the two events and or the two orgs clear in the mind of the reader, or myself for that matter, consider they both go by WAF and both are planning Japan events. Leonard thanks for the assist to help clear up what I was saying. I can refer to the events or the orgs however anyone pleases if you have a preference.

All of my information regarding the testing in Brazil came from people present in Brazil, athletes, country reps, and executives that attended the event.

Now you can consider this an opinion but based upon the comments from those present I would say it was poorly planned for the following reasons.

As I understand it, the awards were given out prior to the testing, thus facilitating the process by where the Russian team was allowed to simply not make themselves available for the testing as required. I was further told by this group that the extent of the sanctions against the competitors for failing to test was simply disqualification from this event, now if you are here to tell me that all of these people that failed to take the test and were DQ’d are currently under sanctions from your WAF I would be thrilled to hear that, or if you have any additional insight about the details that accompanied the testing policy of this event that would be great as well.

Did any placing competitor actually take a drug test in Brazil? How many and whom?

To the next point on this, considering the two Russian teams have now merged under the Russian Federation that is affiliated with the Roy WAF and subsequently they are slated to attend the Roy WAF world event as all of the EAF is to, it really does not matter if your WAF is imposing sanctions upon them or not because that has nothing to do with the Roy WAF.

Karen I, as I know you have, have seen the most recent correspondences on the plight of the unified world event, hard to imagine there will be any semblance of having one unified world event this year.

[simon]

I thought we might be missing each other a bit.

In this country very little is ever done without some form of detailed written consent and agreement of terms. When you sign those consent forms at armwrestling events here in the states, typically you are signing away the right to take legal action against the promoter or the venue for any injuries caused to you while competing. If a promoter does not have these forms signed and in place and someone gets injured competing there could be a serious legal problem for the promoter.

In college when the NCAA tested us, we signed a huge package that detailed the testing procedures, the substances, all of the steps of the ramifications of failing to test or failing a test, plus consent forms for the testing process and a waiver against my the athlete taking any legal action against the NCAA, or my school stemming from this testing agreement. I guess I expect to see something similar. I am surprised that your government does not require more, don't you have any agreement with them, for compensation residency or anything?

There were some basic things determined in SA, the percentages of the total tests to be administered against the first place competitors, and against the second and third place competitors etc, how much money the WAF would contribute to the host country for testing, and allowing the host country to contribute additional funds if they wished to do additional testing in line with the percentages of total tests by placing.

Yes they will be testing 2nd and 3rd place finishers irregardless of the outcome of the test of the first place finisher, so you cannot just come in second so you will not be tested. That is pretty much all that was discussed in SA without going to my notes.

[simon]

Unless Karen or anyone in that group can confirm to the contrary, it is my understanding that the Humberto WAF had no intention of applying additional sanctions against these athletes, so it has nothing to do with Fred and our WAF or unification, the Roy WAF are not formally deciding to ignore the sanctions against these athletes by the other WAF, it is my understanding that the Humberto WAF did not impose any additional sanctions against these athletes, (as I have been told). They very wisely in my opinion were simply trying to take the first steps toward common testing, it did not work out very well but it was a noble start. If they are currently holding sanctions against these Russian pullers I would love to hear about it, certainly the Russian National team did not apply any sanctions against these athletes, considering they competed in their nationals.

At this moment I have nothing to gain or lose by speaking my mind I am honest and straightforward to a fault when it comes to these political matters because as of right now I only care about the plight of the sport and the pullers, my interests are to protect the pullers and grow the sport for the pullers and though I speak a great deal about the politics I find all of these unification gyrations a determent to the sport, particularly considering how long this subject has remained a sore in our sport.

So I say this unafraid to at some point be both wrong a pleasantly surprised, but I see a unified world event or world org in 2005 as extremely unlikely.

[Kurt Howgate]

A lesson can be learned by looking at the sport of boxing. It used to be a highly popular professional sport, now it is at its lowest point in years. One BIG reason is that THERE ARE WAY TOO MANY SANCTIONING BODIES awarding WORLD TITLES. This leads to confusion as too who is on top, and ultimately fans have become disinterested.

[simon]

Let us say for the sake of this conversation, that the Humberto WAF has sanctioned these athletes to two years suspension with no national, EAF or WAF events and then the two WAF's due unify, unify completely not just Brazil show up at the Roy WAF event, but the two groups do actually unify.

Then certainly in my opinion they new unified WAF should maintain the sanctions against those athletes DQ'd from the Brazilian event, provided of course the Humberto WAF can show that their testing was appropriately applied and upright in order to substantiate the sanctions that the testing program has levied against those athletes. If the testing program was not solid nor properly detailed it may not be the right thing to do.

Say for example if I were to attend an event and I refused to test because the terms and sanctions of the test were not previously made aware to me and I do not agree to them and only at that event once I had flown all the way to say Brazil did I get informed of the policy I would not agree to, as an example that if I failed I could be banned for life from competing, (just to be dramatic about it) and if I refused to test I could be banned for a year, would it really be the right thing to do for the Roy WAF post unification to uphold that sanction knowing full well that the policy for the testing was bogus and the athletes were not properly informed regarding the consequences of the testing?

I know someone will say you should not have been dirty then you would not have to worry, but remember even though they do not find an illicit substance in your system you could fail just because your testosterone was too high, even my very clean friend James R could test with his testosterone too high from his steady diet of Wendy’s triples with cheese.

Does anyone on here actually know their testosterone or their GH levels besides Engin? Like your friend Engin people could fail the test regardless of the fact that they take nothing at all and if there is nothing in place to protect them they could be ruined in this sport.

[leonard]

I also have concerns about how all of this is going to be handled. The WADA book is filled with names of substances but none of them is remotely familiar.

[simon]

Again Engin I agree with you, we have to do something, and you are right maybe above the limit Testosterone or GH levels should be allowed as long as there is no presence of banned substances in your system, that is an excellent idea, one that would have to be detailed in some form of properly communicated WAF policy on the subject.

My point to all of this is not that we should not have testing or that we should not all do our part to assist in improving this sport through the legitimacy of testing, simply that we are already in June, the EAF’s are going to be testing very soon and the WAF is only 5.5 months away, subsequently detailing the process for testing needs to be done formally and quickly so that ideas such as yours about the Testosterone and GH levels could be amended into the policy. We as athletes do have an obligation to get off of our asses and assist with the process of testing, part of which is not taking the ignorance is bliss approach to substances, we should do what we can, however we are not the only ones, our leaders need to stand up, dictate the policy and give us proper direction and details so we are all not running around with no idea of how to proceed as a uniformed group. Simply saying we are testing WADA is not suffecient for your first run at testing.

Now I say this knowing that FILA must have a policy and their process, procedures and details etc most likely will become ours, so the ferreting out of the details of our agreement with FILA could be causing delays in us knowing full well what the drug testing procedure may be.

Let me ask these questions, before we started talking about this testing on this thread did anyone on this board know the answers to the following regarding testing at the WAF event in Japan?

Who is going to be tested?
Which placings, 1st, 2nd, 3rd?
How will the random selection portion of the process be facilitated?
When will the test be administered?
What classes are going to be tested?
Men’s open?
Women’s open?
Juniors?
Masters?
Grand Masters?
Disabled?
What are the ramifications or sanctions against an athlete for failing the test?
What are the ramifications or sanctions against an athlete for failing to test?
If a placing tests positive, is the next place tested automatically?
Are the results of your test able to be disclosed to the public?
What method of testing are they going to use?
Urine?
Blood?
Hair?
Do you have an option of which test you can take?
After you fail what do you have to do to try and disprove their findings?
Do you have to pay for a retest on the spot, down the road, will the WAF work with you for subsequent testing by independent labs weeks after the event to help you try and prove your are not using?
Can you request a hearing or administrative review with the WAF over your sanctions?
Are you limited/prevented from pursuing legal action against the WAF for their findings and subsequent sanctions?

Please if you did not or do not know these answers just reply no to all or to all except whichever one you did know.

I am going to go do some research on testing policies in sport.

[simon]

[ftp]http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/testing_v3_a.pdf[/ftp]

I just starting reading this.

[simon]

[ftp]http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/WADA_Athlete-Guide_ENG.pdf[/ftp]

Then there is this

[leonard]

Who is going to be tested?
Which placings, 1st, 2nd, 3rd? 5 tests for 1st and 5 for the combined 2nd and third (Senior divisions only)
How will the random selection portion of the process be facilitated? The weight classes will be randomly drawn after the event is over.
When will the test be administered? Right after the divisions are drawn.
What classes are going to be tested?
Men’s open? Right and Left HandWomen’s open? Right and Left Hand
Juniors? No
Masters? No Grand Masters? NoDisabled? No
What are the ramifications or sanctions against an athlete for failing the test?
What are the ramifications or sanctions against an athlete for failing to test?
This is from the constitution.
ARTICLE 19: CODE OF ETHICS

**NOTE** This section will cover the conduct of executive, officials and athletes alike, both during the championships and between championships.

Sub-sections:
1. All executive, officials and athletes are expected to conduct themselves in a manner that is expected of ladies and gentlemen. It is a great honor to have earned the right to be your country’s ambassadors. Conduct yourselves accordingly.
2. WAF views the use of performance enhancement drugs as unethical and strictly forbids it. WAF follows the same doping guidelines as the International Olympic Committee (IOC). Athletes may be subject to drug testing and if found positive may face the following consequences:
a) If an athlete refuses to take the test or attempts to manipulate the test, both actions will be regarded as guilt and therefore a positive result.
b) The first time offence will result in a one year suspension. A second offence will result in a possible life time suspension.
c) If any athlete is found to be dealing or trafficking in illegal or banned substances they will be suspended for a period of time to be decided by the Disciplinary Sub-Committee.
d) If an athlete is found to test positive, WAF has the right to scrutinize their host country’s armwrestling program and officials for infractions against drug abuse. Countries found guilty of doping will be given a warning for a first offence; second offence will be disqualification from the event in question and third offence will be three year suspension from any WAF sanctioned event.
e) Any athlete found to test positive will be stripped of their medals and standings.
3. All drug tests will be done in an accredited laboratory.
If a placing tests positive, is the next place tested automatically? No
Are the results of your test able to be disclosed to the public? NoWhat method of testing are they going to use?
Urine? YesBlood? No
Hair? NoDo you have an option of which test you can take? No
After you fail what do you have to do to try and disprove their findings? You would request and pay for the sample “B” to be tested.Do you have to pay for a retest on the spot, down the road, will the WAF work with you for subsequent testing by independent labs weeks after the event to help you try and prove your are not using? You would pay for the retest when it is requested.Can you request a hearing or administrative review with the WAF over your sanctions? Yes
Are you limited/prevented from pursuing legal action against the WAF for their findings and subsequent sanctions? ?
Please if you did not or do not know these answers just reply no to all or to all except whichever one you did know.

I am going to go do some research on testing policies in sport.

[simon]

I of course knew that you Leonard would know a lot of these answers as I did, we were in the meeting as some of these items were discussed, but do the athletes know? Is this formal? What happens now that we have may have to follow a FILA version? Certainly I just scratched the surface of possible questions and potential loopholes.

Thank you Leonard for taking the time to put these up.

Is it wiser to put some effort into making sure the athletes really know or should we just simply hope they find their own way to get the answers? Look at the effort WADA goes through to detail the process for the athletes.

As for the individual country heads that should be very concerned about making sure their athletes are in the know… if I were in their shoes I would be hard pressed to try and detail the policy to them simply from my own recollection of the meeting and subsequent conversations, not to mention what could have changed already, I would feel much more comfortable having a WAF document in my hand detailing the subject in full, because I can tell you right now the vast majority of the athletes do not know.

[simon]

Leonard.

I believe the 5 and 5 tests were established as the amount the WAF would pay for and how the % would be applied, if the Japanese organization comes up with more money for testing (which Mr. Endo claimed he would do) there will be more tests than just 10, as I recall.

Do you have to urinate in full view of an official when you take the test?

I think you have to consent to the results of your test being available publicly to at least some level, most policies are that way. Not that it matters once you fail you will be branded a user anyway.

Engin not only do you need an accredited lab which as I recall the host country was responsible for finding but you must also have a doctor specializing in this field on site.

[leonard]

The Doctor that Japan is providing will observe along with an WAF official. Japan was talking about adding to that amount of test but for now the total number of tests are 10.