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Post by Anthony Edens on Jun 24, 2009 8:23:21 GMT -5
I have followed the sport since '04, but have just began competing a year ago and hitting the weights only 3-4 months ago. I'm trying to figure out a realistic long-term goal for myself. I need a little help with the realistic part. My cousin seems to think that armwrestling is about 80-90% genetics and 10-20% hard work. If that's the case, my long term goal would have to be State champion, because I have average sized hands, average natural side pressure, and can't budge or slow down open class pullers right now. But, if hard work can account for much more than 20% then I might be able to be a National Champion someday. Specific examples would be great for this discussion.
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Post by jamesretarides on Jun 24, 2009 8:37:58 GMT -5
Anthony, the best thing you can do for yourself is put your head down and go to work. Having good genetics is great. It is like someone building more than half of the fence in your back yard for you before handing you the nail gun. But anyone that has ever built even half a fence will tell you it is hard work. Rob Vigeant (though he hates hearing this) has the best genetics of anyone I have ever seen in the sport and was beating open class guys in his first year. But he has worked as hard as anyone I know to attain his current level of success.
It took me damn near 4 years of living this sport before I started having success. I have a medium length forearm, a small hand and was an overweight 198 novice when I started in 98. I didn't win an open class match until 2000 and didn't win an open class until Mass States in 2001. If you work out smart and hard, there is no reason why you couldn't start winning open class matches by next year.
If you need any help 2038047649. I will be at the gym until noon but I am available virtually anytime after that.
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Post by Jim Wagner on Jun 24, 2009 8:42:25 GMT -5
Anthony- thats bull. You can work hard, and become a good open class competitor. You may not be top 3 in the Nation, most of those guys have great genetics, combined with work, but you can be good enough to hold your own.
You may never beat the top 10-15% of guys, but its all about being as good as you can be with what tools you have. Im nobody, with horrible genetics, but I can hold my own with 80% of guys. I know what I do well, and what I dont, so doing what you're best at and stopping someone from what they are good at will go a long way. It takes time, but enjoy yourself.
The fun is seeing where you top out man! You are a positive guy in this, dont change a thing!
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Post by Max Moore on Jun 24, 2009 9:05:57 GMT -5
anthony i have come to think that its more like
50% genetics and 50% training/skill/hardwork/specific strength development, with 100% being the pinnacle of aemwrestling ability, brzenk, bath, larratt, etc...
i have some buddies that are so genetically gifted that its just funed! they are the kinda guys that have always been stronger than just about everybody......huge hands, giant wrists, very powerfull people. the kinda guys that make you cringe by just shakin your hand.
but it seems that their tendency to rely on that natural strength becomes a hurdle for them (just like it did for me.) you can only get so far in armwrestling using brute strength, at least the kind that your average person is familiar with.
i once read something that john brzenk said that made sense to me, he said that armwrestling is all about technique, but you have to develop specific strengths to be able to utilize them. i.e. without strength there is no techique.
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Post by simon on Jun 24, 2009 9:32:08 GMT -5
Genetics are important but don't assume you know the required genetics for being a very good armwrestler.
I have small hands, and short arms.. right there I should not be pulling at all under the classic tools one should have. As James indicated you really need to put in the time... and most importantly learn how to optimize your tools and your genetic attributes. It takes time and effort pursuing excellence in the sport to really scratch the surface of learning how to be the best you can be and how to use those skills against your opponents.
Learn from others in the sport but don't copy them, take everything you learn and figure out how this works best for you or if at all.
Challenge everyones thought process including your own, as most people in this sport do... I used to chase the lighter classes thinking if I could be a bit stronger than the lighter guys, I could win, and I did but I have had far more success when I realized I could somewhat negate the impact of the larger hands by being bigger and stronger pulling up in the heavier classes, when I was heavier and stronger I could pull in more variations and styles with more success. When I learned that I did not have to be the only one in the match holding on, (being a hooker it was kind of my nature to grip tight and drive in) that made a huge difference in what I was able to do. etc etc.
I won't blow smoke at you some people will never get really good at this sport, anymore than I will play in the NBA, the beauty of armwrestling though is that there are so many ways to be successful in this sport that you don't have to be over 6 foot with a 4 ft vertical.
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Post by Guy Lasorsa on Jun 24, 2009 9:48:07 GMT -5
anthony i have come to think that its more like 50% genetics and 50% training/skill/hardwork/specific strength development, with 100% being the pinnacle of aemwrestling ability, brzenk, bath, larratt, etc... i have some buddies that are so genetically gifted that its just funed! they are the kinda guys that have always been stronger than just about everybody......huge hands, giant wrists, very powerfull people. the kinda guys that make you cringe by just shakin your hand. but it seems that their tendency to rely on that natural strength becomes a hurdle for them (just like it did for me.) you can only get so far in armwrestling using brute strength, at least the kind that your average person is familiar with. i once read something that john brzenk said that made sense to me, he said that armwrestling is all about technique, but you have to develop specific strengths to be able to utilize them. i.e. without strength there is no techique. Thats about what i was going to say. Some gifted people dont work that hard or care. Having decent genetics and hard work you will have to see than how far you can go.
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Post by Max Moore on Jun 24, 2009 9:51:59 GMT -5
and believe me anthony if I can become competative in the open class so can you.
all i wanted to do is become the best armwrestler i can be and have fun. i dont take it serious or put in the kinda training and emphasis that the top guys do so i dont expect those kinda results. i am happy just bein a part of the sport and being able to compete. i been pullin a lil over 2 years off and on and some say i have made alota progress in a short time. i truthfully never thought i would ever be competative in the pro class. i SUCKED BAD when i started and look at me now!
now i just KINDA SUCK!
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Jun 24, 2009 10:56:56 GMT -5
I'm curious...what happens when you've reached your maximum natural potential? What do you do?
I've thought about this topic a lot. Is it possible for me/anyone to become the next Travis Bagent, Ron Bath, or John Brzenk? If I reach my maximum potential NATURALLY and am still nowhere near these guys, do I have to make the decision to either be happy with what I have achieved, or take the next step....? Basically, does someone that can't compete genetically with these guys have to make up for that gap synthetically to reach their level?
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Post by Anthony Snook on Jun 24, 2009 16:00:42 GMT -5
Since people are throwing #'s around I say 90% work, 10% genetics, 10% science(doing the correct things for your sport). How good is your cousin?
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Post by Guy Lasorsa on Jun 24, 2009 16:22:41 GMT -5
I'm curious...what happens when you've reached your maximum natural potential? What do you do? I've thought about this topic a lot. Is it possible for me/anyone to become the next Travis Bagent, Ron Bath, or John Brzenk? If I reach my maximum potential NATURALLY and am still nowhere near these guys, do I have to make the decision to either be happy with what I have achieved, or take the next step....? Basically, does someone that can't compete genetically with these guys have to make up for that gap synthetically to reach their level? Wow chris, that is saying a lot. We have talked and debated this subject on here at least one big thread a year. IMO the bigger the tournament , the better chance you will run into that. It comes down to individual choice obviously. Most people will never reach that level no matter what they do, but I have seen people improve quite a bit at the right times , close the gap or maybe surpass people they shouldnt , But will you think its worth it or right ?
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Jun 24, 2009 16:33:39 GMT -5
I'm curious...what happens when you've reached your maximum natural potential? What do you do? I've thought about this topic a lot. Is it possible for me/anyone to become the next Travis Bagent, Ron Bath, or John Brzenk? If I reach my maximum potential NATURALLY and am still nowhere near these guys, do I have to make the decision to either be happy with what I have achieved, or take the next step....? Basically, does someone that can't compete genetically with these guys have to make up for that gap synthetically to reach their level? Wow chris, that is saying a lot. We have talked and debated this subject on here at least one big thread a year. IMO the bigger the tournament , the better chance you will run into that. It comes down to individual choice obviously. Some people will never reach that level no matter what they do, but I have seen people improve quite a bit at the right times , close the gap or maybe surpass people they shouldnt , But will you think its worth it or right ? Yeah I know. I've read all the threads on steroids and whatnot. You are one of the few that usually don't beat around the bush on the topic (much appreciated). I'd like to think that i could be an "elite" puller someday, but I'm afraid that if I don't have the genetics or aren't willing to stick a needle in my ass then I can't. If that's the case, then so be it. Then armwrestling would be no different than any other sport. I know that I haven't reached my full natural potential in armwrestling yet, so I won't know until I get there. Personally, I don't see the point until I have completely perfected my or all techniques. Otherwise I can't see anything but injury, or a short lived or cycled (hit or miss ;D) domination. Let's just say I am NOT naive when it comes to "genetics" in armwrestling or any other sport.
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Post by enginterzi on Jun 24, 2009 16:34:23 GMT -5
Potential should not be limited with physical things to be explained.Your mind determines the biggest part of your potential.your body will not do anything without having orders from your brain.so what you physically have will be leaded by your mind.a good leader can lead an average genetic to become the best.
work? will only mean something if it is thought and applied correct.. which is another factor of mind..for ex. 100 people may perform the scott curls but the small differences between the appliers will make differences about the benefits.
Brzenk is the only one (that i know) who has all the required factors..it is not possible to become as good as he is by hard work only but is possible become as good as anyone else (for your weight) by doing the correct things as long as you have an average genetic.could Brzenk have been as good as he is if he did not have such a great control on his power? he always won because he was the strongest? what are we doing,a bench press competetion?
but i must say that the age is also important as you can shape the tree only when it is young.
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Post by Max Moore on Jun 24, 2009 18:32:39 GMT -5
Potential should not be limited with physical things to be explained.Your mind determines the biggest part of your potential.your body will not do anything without having orders from your brain.so what you physically have will be leaded by your mind.a good leader can lead an average genetic to become the best. work? will only mean something if it is thought and applied correct.. which is another factor of mind..for ex. 100 people may perform the scott curls but the small differences between the appliers will make differences about the benefits. Brzenk is the only one (that i know) who has all the required factors..it is not possible to become as good as he is by hard work only but is possible become as good as anyone else (for your weight) by doing the correct things as long as you have an average genetic.could Brzenk have been as good as he is if he did not have such a great control on his power? he always won because he was the strongest? what are we doing,a bench press competetion? but i must say that the age is also important as you can shape the tree only when it is young. good point Engin! for me physical strength and mental control go hand in hand. it is impossible to have the first w/o the latter. just like john Brzenk or any other top pro armwrestler a World class bench press competitor must have extreme mental focus and conrol over his body. what im tryin to say is that i think strength is largely determined by ones ability to forge their will and demand more of their body through mental control.
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Post by enginterzi on Jun 25, 2009 2:15:49 GMT -5
focus is not enough to provide success by itself esspecially if where you apply your power is not a bench press bar.armwrestling takes much more than what bench press takes.most simple example is; you are competing against a living human being who has different strength points,speed,technique and testosteron ;D so focusing to bench press must be much easier than the focusing on beating a live opponent.
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Post by John Wilson on Jun 25, 2009 6:56:33 GMT -5
I think genetics is a very broad term. Genetics may determine that you should spend more time learning to be a hooker ( you have small hands and a short arm ). But how good a hooker you become will then be based on your strength, training, coaching, devotion, intelligence, DESIRE.
The age old answer to the question of how far your genetics will take you is this: you won't know until you've done it all, tried it all, practiced it all and then repeated it all. Your limits can only be determined at the end of the race, not the beginning.
Armwrestling is not singing. You can't practice enough to be Celine Dion or Mariah Carey if it's just not in you. That's a gift, but like James said it's still only half the fence. But armwrestling doesn't depend on genetics to that extent. Maybe if every armwrestler besides you was John Brzenk it would, but he is the exception not the rule.
This is a very small sport. There is plenty of room for everyone. If you played football you'd never get the chance to go take on Warren Sapp. But in this sport you can go pull John Brzenk to see where you stand.
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