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Post by Jake Smith on Sept 15, 2010 20:45:10 GMT -5
Karen, putting on a tournament or atleast a well thought out one should include media for the pullers. What production company pays a promoter to video an event?
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Post by Tommy Russell on Sept 15, 2010 23:07:24 GMT -5
It's crazy to me that some people think there doin Gary a favor by allowing him to film there events. Seeing tournaments like the UAL or NAA on ARMTV is what makes me want to go to these tournaments not because I " Heard" they where great tournaments but because I saw it on ARMTV. I'm sure that's the way it was twenty yrs. ago, but that was twenty yrs. ago.
Members pay to watch ARMTV but to be sure no one can think that thats enough to travel all over the country, stay in hotels, eat, pay for up keep on equipment ( batteries, tapes, ect..), the work that's involved after the trip, and still pay bills. Like insurance, lights, water, mortgage, car payment, kids....................................... If ARMTV can't stay a float it will be a huge step backwards for AW'ling. With that being said, I don't think most people give a s--t as long as they can keep making there 5,6,7 hundred dollars a tournament.
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Post by Josh Handeland on Sept 15, 2010 23:24:45 GMT -5
It's crazy to me that some people think there doin Gary a favor by allowing him to film there events. Seeing tournaments like the UAL or NAA on ARMTV is what makes me want to go to these tournaments not because I " Heard" they where great tournaments but because I saw it on ARMTV. I'm sure that's the way it was twenty yrs. ago, but that was twenty yrs. ago. Agreed 100% excellent post.
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Post by jonathanvazquez on Sept 16, 2010 6:59:56 GMT -5
It's crazy to me that some people think there doin Gary a favor by allowing him to film there events. Seeing tournaments like the UAL or NAA on ARMTV is what makes me want to go to these tournaments not because I " Heard" they where great tournaments but because I saw it on ARMTV. I'm sure that's the way it was twenty yrs. ago, but that was twenty yrs. ago. Agreed 100% excellent post. Agreed x2!
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Post by Frank Bean on Sept 16, 2010 7:47:23 GMT -5
I can say I personally have not spoken to anyone who felt they were doing Gary a favor by having him film their event. At the same time I can say I have not had anyone tell me that they felt Gary was doing them a favor either. I don't think doing whoever a favor even enters into it.
As Karen stated, Gary started a business and with any business it costs money. Not only to get your business started, but to maintain is costly.
Promoters already foot the bill for equipment, awards, venues, officials, fliers, postage, phone calls, travel expenses, meals, accommodations, and any other expenses. We pay the award company for their service in making our awards. We pay the post office for mailing our fliers. We pay the airlines for our own tickets, the hotels for our rooms, the restaurants for our food, the gas companies for our fuel, etc. We pay all of these vendors for a service that we use and for the most part benefit from.
Filming an event, putting it on the internet, and charging a small percentage of the competitors money to watch it does not benefit our events. Of course some of you have said that if an event is on ARMTV then the event will get more competitors. I do not believe this to be factual. The event is aired after it is completed. In some cases, many weeks after it's completed. Watching the event after the fact let's you see who was there that did not make it into the results listing and how they pulled. Results are already posted so everyone knows who placed. Use the Super Bowl as an example of what I'm saying. If you weren't there which most of us aren't, then watching it weeks later tells you what? You already know what teams played and who won. Does watching it later make you want to buy tickets to next years game?
Times are tough. Money is tight. Jobs are hard to come by. From what I've seen on this board off and on for the past year, the economy crunch has hit a lot of people including Gary Roberts. His membership is down because people's priorities have changed and they're extremely money conscious. As membership waned the cries for needing more members to do this and that surfaced off and on. Now, here it is again only in different form.
ARMTV has made its money off of charging a membership. That has worked fine for the past few years. Now it's not. Everyone is in financial straits, everyone is penny pinching, everyone is sorting their priorities. Promoters have managed to continue to bring events to the competitors. Maybe not as many as before. Maybe not as many as some of you would like. We promoters don't have a money tree growing in our back yards and believe me what we receive from entry fees absolutely does not cover our costs.
In short, you can't get blood out of a rock. ARMTV is an intricate part of our sport and I would hate to see it discontinue but I cannot see placing even more expenses on promoters. If Gary cannot afford expenses necessary for his travel then I agree with Karen that he needs to utilize as many people as possible that are traveling to events close to them to get coverage at minimal costs. Competitors want to watch video and obviously will pay to watch video.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Sept 16, 2010 8:47:31 GMT -5
If, thats IF there will be another NAA event in the Northeast, we haven't decided whether or not to have it filmed. We have found that, by having it filmed by Gary Or Scott, attendance #s have gone way down. When that happens, sponsorship sees his #s and won't sponsor anymore. Also Hosts #s go down as well, and complain..... I attribute, not to anyones fault, to pullers and friends NOT coming to watch when they can watch it either portions of it that night or the entire meet the next day or in a couple of days. So If they aren't pulling why waste entire day traveling ( even local pullers) to an event to watch, when you can see it later when they can be doing something else....
An idea we are kicking around is maybe we will Professionally tape it and sell the videos......Gary can buy one OR give him one and put it on ARMTV at a time that is benefical to all parties....We would do it like Mike Bowling did when he 1st started the Harley Pull. You video tape or do it by cell phone, u will be kicked out.....Pulling or not...
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Sept 16, 2010 9:53:06 GMT -5
If, thats IF there will be another NAA event in the Northeast, we haven't decided whether or not to have it filmed. We have found that, by having it filmed by Gary Or Scott, attendance #s have gone way down. When that happens, sponsorship sees his #s and won't sponsor anymore. Also Hosts #s go down as well, and complain..... I attribute, not to anyones fault, to pullers and friends NOT coming to watch when they can watch it either portions of it that night or the entire meet the next day or in a couple of days. So If they aren't pulling why waste entire day traveling ( even local pullers) to an event to watch, when you can see it later when they can be doing something else.... An idea we are kicking around is maybe we will Professionally tape it and sell the videos......Gary can buy one OR give him one and put it on ARMTV at a time that is benefical to all parties....We would do it like Mike Bowling did when he 1st started the Harley Pull. You video tape or do it by cell phone, u will be kicked out.....Pulling or not... Hmmmm, I never thought of it that way, but it is true. There are events that I don't go to because I can watch it ArmTV. If there wasn't ArmTV my interest in going to an event to watch, and inevitbly pull, would be greater since I didn't have the option to watch it later. Maybe it should be call ArmTiVo. ;D I'm just curious, is there any marketing being done by ArmTV in places other than tournaments? If not then I can see why it hasn't been sustainable or risen at all. You can only milk the cow so many times before it runs out of milk.
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Post by Gary Roberts on Sept 16, 2010 12:24:55 GMT -5
this conversation always goes to the same place.
ARM TV was never meant to be a one man operation.
growth has tapped because resources are tapped
have we done outside marketing? no, I do what I know how to do best and companies grow when you are able to hire people who do other jobs best. Sadly, I can't hire. But look to LEACH as an example if we could grow.
superbowl is a bad analogy. there could be a lockout next year and the nfl will still make a profit even without one game. profitable with no attendance? (because of existing television contracts)
Internet and television are becoming one and the same. And the opportunity for the growth of the sport has always been how many people could you get to watch the event rather than attend the event. compare who watches the superbowl versus attends the superbowl.
And it was always the goal to sponsor the tournaments so promoters like Christian will benefit more in the long run. Imagine if you didn't care about less attendance because you could put on a better show. Tournaments need to be 3 hours for spectators. Imagine if the difference came in in sponsorship.
going back to arm tv being a one man operation, without growth I can offer no more than I am currently doing... ahhh... Land of what could of been.
Sadly, this conversation is always null..goes to the same negative places.
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Sept 16, 2010 13:24:38 GMT -5
Gary, you obviously have the intelligence to learn new trades as you've had to learn web development and video cutting and editing. Why not spend a little time learning about marketing?
Armwrestlers make up a fraction of a percent of people who have internet. If you got a fraction of a percent of normal people to sign up, that would double your numbers.
I know you kind of have niche market here, but it doesn't have to be advertised or sold to only that niche. I'm not a business owner or anything, but it just seems logical.
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Post by Pete & Tim on Sept 16, 2010 13:53:34 GMT -5
No one wants to watch armwrestling except armwrestlers. Once that "cow" is milked, you're out of business unless you find a sponsor. Gary to my knowledge has never sought out or has had any success finding an outside sponsor. Armwrestlers fund Arm TV. Once they stop, so does Arm TV. Case closed.
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Post by Gary Roberts on Sept 16, 2010 14:34:05 GMT -5
I do know this. My point was even so...it is easier to get more people (armwrestlers) to watch then to attend. But my pipe dream was to advertise events and sponsor them. It could have worked. If you consistently advertised, and produced a higher quality show you could steer towards real spectators. It would all be possible if you had a larger budget. I see what your saying but you only have enough space in your brain to master and do so many things. J Paul Getty's Book How to think and grow rich... Surround yourself with people smarter than you and you will succeed. That is what I wanted to do.
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Post by Gary Roberts on Sept 16, 2010 14:44:59 GMT -5
I think HBO began funded by subscribers as well. It can work. I believe that in the beginning nobody in the movie industry thought they would end up being producing and award winning powerhouses but They now produced Amazing products that compete with the regular TV advertised format.
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Post by Gary Roberts on Sept 16, 2010 14:49:06 GMT -5
as subscriber base increased..so did the quality of product
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Sept 16, 2010 15:53:09 GMT -5
I do know this. My point was even so...it is easier to get more people (armwrestlers) to watch then to attend. But my pipe dream was to advertise events and sponsor them. It could have worked. If you consistently advertised, and produced a higher quality show you could steer towards real spectators. It would all be possible if you had a larger budget. I see what your saying but you only have enough space in your brain to master and do so many things. J Paul Getty's Book How to think and grow rich... Surround yourself with people smarter than you and you will succeed. That is what I wanted to do. Yeah something similar to that in that you focus on the one thing you're good at, and do it well. I'm just saying that this avenue has been exhausted and/or has been retracting, so find another one. Companies change their business plans all the time. I hope you find another way of bringing in members for our (ArmTV Members) sakes.
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Post by Bruce Urabe on Sept 16, 2010 16:52:15 GMT -5
I think you should expand to other sports Gary and not just be ArmTV. But ArmTV would just be a branch. Intergration is the key, and business co-op is vital to any ONE businesses success. I have a couple suggestions on sports...How about women's roller derby? Like from the movie whip it....seems to be a growing sport. There's even an event going on HERE! Where there is absolutely zero arm wrestling a sport like women's roller derby has started...how crazy is that...hahaha. Do not go to current popular sports like football, baseball...there's enough of that. Look for sports that are emerging. I honestly think ArmTV has brought more people to this sport...ie me for one. Other non mainstream sports i think would greatly appreciate the exposure. C'mon...look at extreme sports. started as some kids wanting to make a simple sport more interesting...the battle arm wrestling was an attempt but just ridiculous in the end...that's just my idea Gary.
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