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Post by Anthony Edens on Feb 8, 2012 11:53:04 GMT -5
I've not been on the board much lately, but there always seems to be a common thread that pops up from time to time: Growing the Sport of Armwrestling. There have been lots of great ideas proposed, but in the end the only thing that will actually "grow" the sport is bringing in more money. Most of the proposed ideas are actually just different ways of spreading the existing money around. What I have seen is that most small promoters don't even seek out sponsorship other than a host site. Then they expect entry fees to cover everything and often don't even give out prize money. This is not going to "grow" the sport.
The unique challenge with armwrestling is that it is not a spectator sport and certainly isn't one that entices everyone to participate.
If we want to "grow" the sport we have to find Big Name Sponsors and then find a way to get them a return on investment. i.e. Over the Top movie.
The other option, which is much slower is to keep inviting guys/gals to our local practices and tourneys. (relationship building)
One idea that I have thought of was for someone to develop a really good clothing brand that would also appeal to non armwrestlers. Fox clothing was designed for Motocross, but I've seen all kinds of kids wearing their brand. I really liked Don Underwood's Toproll brand, but he stopped before I could order anything. Maybe he could offer a preorder for anyone who was interested and this would help him get his brand up and running? I'm sure if he could guarantee a certain percentage of profits went back into the sport, it couldn't hurt his sales. Just a few of my thoughts.
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 8, 2012 13:47:30 GMT -5
Good stuff, Anthony.
I've always believed that Armwrestling needs a partnership sponsor who already spends a lot of time and money on advertisement. A company that needs a new, fresh hook for their advertising. Armwrestling is a good hook. It is interesting and exciting to people, even if they have no desire to armwrestle.
My analogy is Professional Bull Riding. Outside of the southwest, rodeo is nearly unseen and unheard of. But Wrangler Jeans and Ford Trucks are not. Wrangler Jeans and Ford Trucks spend a lot of money on advertising and PBR is a good hook. Bull riding fits the image they want to project. Wrangler Jeans and Ford don't give a flying crap about bull riding and they don't need to. They get to use PBR as a vehicle to push their product and image nationwide.
If you watch a PBR event on TV, it's a wall to wall commercial. Every square inch is advertising, so regardless of the camera shot, it's a commercial. During the commercial breaks there are more Wrangler and Ford commercials. It's blanket advertising using bull riding as an excuse.
Armwrestling needs something like this. We don't need anyone to care about armwrestling. We just need to sell our image to someone who wants to use our image to associate ruggedness with their brand. Since the commercials feature armwrestling, we get pull-through into living rooms across the nation. We get sponsorship dollars because Wrangler wants premier events to showcase their brand. You don't see PBR events on TV being held at county fairs. The reason for that is the sponsor wants an image and pays for that image.
I disagree with people who believe that growing our sport into a giant production will draw sponsors. Sponsors will do that part for us. We have an image and we need to sell that image. If it means we all wear Wrangler Jeans, or nike shoes, or drink Jeremiah Weed at the events, then so be it.
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Feb 8, 2012 14:13:06 GMT -5
Good points guys. I don't want to open a whole can of worms and regurgitate the same old garbage, but I just wanted to throw out a few random things that I think and have noticed.
1. Armwrestling is exciting to watch....IF done correctly. I recently went to the UFC event in Denver and I tell you what, fans ARE NOT patient when it comes to action. The fans start booing as soon the fighters stop punching or grappling for 10 seconds. I consider Armwrestling as having the same fan base as fighting, so there is NO WAY we could keep the fans happy with our current format. I believe Neil, with his experience in MMA, has figured out a way to appease the crowds with his format. I personally haven't been to any of his events though, so I couldn't say how the fans react.
2. Kind of a continuation of 1, but the whole Armwestling isn't marketable is BS. What can MMA sell besides fan products and apparel? They are doing pretty good using this model.
3. It's like the chicken and the egg problem. To get big time sponsors you need exposure. Like John's example with PBR. The reason they have so many sponsors is because the companies believe that PBR has enough fans to warrent the expense of advertising through exposure. So, how do we get this? I believe we need to have the money first and bring the big show to the sponsors. We don't have the clout and popularity to make promises. This would entail TONS more marketing for tournaments and events to bring more bodies in to watch. Kind of the "if you build it, people will come" idea. Again I believe Neil is working on this with the exposure with ArmWars through Eurosport, but I don't know how successful he's been as far as sponsorship. It's simple, sponsors will go where the people are. A perfect example is the Superbowl.
Again just a few things I've been thinking about recently. In the end, this is all about BUSINESS and ROIs.
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Post by mactelle on Feb 8, 2012 14:18:12 GMT -5
I've not been on the board much lately, but there always seems to be a common thread that pops up from time to time: Growing the Sport of Armwrestling.There have been lots of great ideas proposed, but in the end the only thing that will actually "grow" the sport is bringing in more money. Most of the proposed ideas are actually just different ways of spreading the existing money around. What I have seen is that most small promoters don't even seek out sponsorship other than a host site. Then they expect entry fees to cover everything and often don't even give out prize money. This is not going to "grow" the sport. The unique challenge with armwrestling is that it is not a spectator sport and certainly isn't one that entices everyone to participate. If we want to "grow" the sport we have to find Big Name Sponsors and then find a way to get them a return on investment. i.e. Over the Top movie. The other option, which is much slower is to keep inviting guys/gals to our local practices and tourneys. (relationship building) One idea that I have thought of was for someone to develop a really good clothing brand that would also appeal to non armwrestlers. Fox clothing was designed for Motocross, but I've seen all kinds of kids wearing their brand. I really liked Don Underwood's Toproll brand, but he stopped before I could order anything. Maybe he could offer a preorder for anyone who was interested and this would help him get his brand up and running? I'm sure if he could guarantee a certain percentage of profits went back into the sport, it couldn't hurt his sales. Just a few of my thoughts. I have to disagree with you Anthony, I believe that this IS a spectator sport..... In a nut shell there is NO sport even worth watching unless it has a Great audience making alot of cheers and jeers..If you keep the crowd excited throughout the event they will respond... I have worked with 2 sponsors since I started putting on events and I have always made sure the winners of the event will get money...and I have made sure the crowd gets gifts as well, a happy crowd equals a exciting event...this last event me and Bill Collins put on I made sure I had a bag full of stuff for the crowd...I gave away ten $10 dollar Subway gift cards...I gave away over 200 Sports Authority Chapsticks and Rubber Bracelets, and a $40 John Brzenk Action Figure...This sport is nothing without spectators....you are very right that there should always be sponsors...we raised $1500 for the event through our sponsors....I know thats not alot, but ezch time the Sponsors are giving more money...this last event one of the Sponsors came to the event, he called me the next day and said he is dropping ALL his other sponsors and ONLY focusing on Our events from now on.....Alot of that had to do with the crowd......without a good crowd....Boxing is boring....seriously
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Post by David Owens on Feb 8, 2012 14:53:12 GMT -5
I've not been on the board much lately, but there always seems to be a common thread that pops up from time to time: Growing the Sport of Armwrestling.There have been lots of great ideas proposed, but in the end the only thing that will actually "grow" the sport is bringing in more money. Most of the proposed ideas are actually just different ways of spreading the existing money around. What I have seen is that most small promoters don't even seek out sponsorship other than a host site. Then they expect entry fees to cover everything and often don't even give out prize money. This is not going to "grow" the sport. The unique challenge with armwrestling is that it is not a spectator sport and certainly isn't one that entices everyone to participate. If we want to "grow" the sport we have to find Big Name Sponsors and then find a way to get them a return on investment. i.e. Over the Top movie. The other option, which is much slower is to keep inviting guys/gals to our local practices and tourneys. (relationship building) One idea that I have thought of was for someone to develop a really good clothing brand that would also appeal to non armwrestlers. Fox clothing was designed for Motocross, but I've seen all kinds of kids wearing their brand. I really liked Don Underwood's Toproll brand, but he stopped before I could order anything. Maybe he could offer a preorder for anyone who was interested and this would help him get his brand up and running? I'm sure if he could guarantee a certain percentage of profits went back into the sport, it couldn't hurt his sales. Just a few of my thoughts. I have to disagree with you Anthony, I believe that this IS a spectator sport..... In a nut shell there is NO sport even worth watching unless it has a Great audience making alot of cheers and jeers..If you keep the crowd excited throughout the event they will respond... I have worked with 2 sponsors since I started putting on events and I have always made sure the winners of the event will get money...and I have made sure the crowd gets gifts as well, a happy crowd equals a exciting event...this last event me and Bill Collins put on I made sure I had a bag full of stuff for the crowd...I gave away ten $10 dollar Subway gift cards...I gave away over 200 Sports Authority Chapsticks and Rubber Bracelets, and a $40 John Brzenk Action Figure...This sport is nothing without spectators....you are very right that there should always be sponsors...we raised $1500 for the event through our sponsors....I know thats not alot, but ezch time the Sponsors are giving more money...this last event one of the Sponsors came to the event, he called me the next day and said he is dropping ALL his other sponsors and ONLY focusing on Our events from now on.....Alot of that had to do with the crowd......without a good crowd....Boxing is boring....seriously Bring the armwrestling to the crowd, the fan base does not already exist so steal fans from a sport where it already does exist, if you showcase armwrestling in front of 15000 you are bound to gain some new fans, I have talk to robert drenk about this and he said he was working on doing that very thing, there are armwrestlers in most big cities, we need someone with some pull to contact the entertainment dept for these different sport franchise and get them to give us ten minutes during halftime or between periods......its not gonna change over night but if we can get some hype stirred up among the general population we will be moving in the right direction Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by TK on Feb 8, 2012 15:42:08 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you Anthony, I believe that this IS a spectator sport..... In a nut shell there is NO sport even worth watching unless it has a Great audience making alot of cheers and jeers..If you keep the crowd excited throughout the event they will respond... I have worked with 2 sponsors since I started putting on events and I have always made sure the winners of the event will get money...and I have made sure the crowd gets gifts as well, a happy crowd equals a exciting event...this last event me and Bill Collins put on I made sure I had a bag full of stuff for the crowd...I gave away ten $10 dollar Subway gift cards...I gave away over 200 Sports Authority Chapsticks and Rubber Bracelets, and a $40 John Brzenk Action Figure...This sport is nothing without spectators....you are very right that there should always be sponsors...we raised $1500 for the event through our sponsors....I know thats not alot, but ezch time the Sponsors are giving more money...this last event one of the Sponsors came to the event, he called me the next day and said he is dropping ALL his other sponsors and ONLY focusing on Our events from now on.....Alot of that had to do with the crowd......without a good crowd....Boxing is boring....seriously Bring the armwrestling to the crowd, the fan base does not already exist so steal fans from a sport where it already does exist, if you showcase armwrestling in front of 15000 you are bound to gain some new fans, I have talk to robert drenk about this and he said he was working on doing that very thing, there are armwrestlers in most big cities, we need someone with some pull to contact the entertainment dept for these different sport franchise and get them to give us ten minutes during halftime or between periods......its not gonna change over night but if we can get some hype stirred up among the general population we will be moving in the right direction Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards that David is a GREAT idea....I've been working with a guy in my area and i'm also trying to get something like that going....share venues with something already heavily fan-based. GREAT IDEA! TK
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Post by Robert Drenk on Feb 8, 2012 15:47:47 GMT -5
Everything said above is correct in different ways but the major item missing is that you can’t get sponsor dollars until you have something to offer in return (fans or bodies)! The sponsors will not continue to give money if they are not getting the return on investment. The return to them is exposure, when they come to a Armwrestling event and see 100 or even 400 people that would be worth about anywhere from $500 - say $2000 so to get this sport to grow we must bring more people to the events. That means more "Pullers", more Family, more spectators and so on! We are working hard to get the word out for nationals via Harrah's internal email and website for spectator purposes. Harrah's has been a great sponsor for our sport but we need to show them the love up front and when we have events we need everyone to stay at their property, eat at their facilities and so on. The day will come when the crowds of fans will overtake the need for this but for now we need to support our supports if that makes sense.
As for the clothing Brand you need to have something to make the brand stand out, not have the brand make the sport stand out... Fox didn’t make motocross cool, motocross athletes made Fox (the brand) cool! That day will come for us!
Just my 2 cents
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Post by mactelle on Feb 8, 2012 16:08:41 GMT -5
Everything said above is correct in different ways but the major item missing is that you can’t get sponsor dollars until you have something to offer in return (fans or bodies)! The sponsors will not continue to give money if they are not getting the return on investment. The return to them is exposure, when they come to a Armwrestling event and see 100 or even 400 people that would be worth about anywhere from $500 - say $2000 so to get this sport to grow we must bring more people to the events. That means more "Pullers", more Family, more spectators and so on! We are working hard to get the word out for nationals via Harrah's internal email and website for spectator purposes. Harrah's has been a great sponsor for our sport but we need to show them the love up front and when we have events we need everyone to stay at their property, eat at their facilities and so on. The day will come when the crowds of fans will overtake the need for this but for now we need to support our supports if that makes sense. As for the clothing Brand you need to have something to make the brand stand out, not have the brand make the sport stand out... Fox didn’t make motocross cool, motocross athletes made Fox (the brand) cool! That day will come for us! Just my 2 cents Soon everyone will be wearing a Stop Sign Entertainment Shirt...lol.... Cant wait til Nationals...you guys are for sure gonna make a great event.
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Post by Derek Smith on Feb 8, 2012 16:08:53 GMT -5
This makes me think that if we created one 'Super Event' and went all out with it, that it would save our sport.
If there is one thing i have noticed that pretty much EVERYONE agrees on its the fact that AW is in a bad way right now, we need to fix it.
Here is a random idea, like Gabe said, we have an insane mixture of people on this board and into AW as a whole. So why dont we all get over our own pride and greed and try to create one event.
-Im sure someone on here has a 3rd cousin who's best friends brother is VP of Nesquik, and many other sponsors regardless of how big. -Im also sure that someone else on here has the dedication and know how to create a amazing proposal, with demographics, charts, numbers, and all that.
-Im sure we have someone who could also make an AMAZING video to really show what we could offer audiences to show the sponsor also.
-I know there is some guy on here who knows a place that would be the PERFECT venue where its huge, in a central location, affordable, has hotels/motels near by, and all that.
-I know we have so many people that have so much experience in putting events together that if they all agreed on the best rules while considering the necessary crowd appeal could make this thing run sooo smoothly, while keeping it very entertaining.
-I know we have some great MC's who could make the buzz in that venue crazy.
-Etc.
-Etc.
I am super new to this sport, i know that. I read as much as i can on this board and anywhere else around about AW. It seems like the old olden age of AW was when Petaluma was around with TV. Or Yukon Jack. it seems to me that when there is one big central event that this sport springs to life.
So why cant we (as a community who LOVES the same thing and wants it to flourish) come together, pool our talents, contacts, dedication, and experience, and create a super event?
It could all be designed on this board, one thread titled 'Venue's for SUPER MEGA EVENT' then anyone who knows anything posts their best ideas, who they know, and what they can do to help. Other threads are titled 'Event Name?', 'Date?', 'Rules?', 'Sponsorships?', Etc. Then everyone posts which is their favorite idea and we start a poll with the top 5 ideas, then we go from there. We could also create a thread 'Our Chosen Ones' in which we start throwing out names and who we think has what it takes to help head up an event like this, same thing we narrow it down, have a poll, and choose like the top 3 people to manage this event. Then we offer it to them.
Then we all make it our DUTY as real dedicated pullers to attend this event. The money will be there (sponsors and us if we need to create a web page with a paypal link and agree on someone to collect $10 per person) so that should draw the best and the best should draw the rest...
We could have Neil (for example) running 'SuperMatch Saturday' and Bill Collins (for example) running 'Open Bracket Friday', and Leonard (for example) running 'Amateurs Sunday'. I have this awesome vision in my head of everyone getting together and doing this..
It seems like the ONLY reason this couldnt/wouldnt happen is if WE get in our own way.
I think it will be tough as a promoter to look at this and want to get behind it, but if we create a 'Super Event' then its only going to grow the sport and bring more people to your event in the long run....
Sorry if i offended anyone it wasnt my intention, i know i am new and there are probably TONS of holes in my idea, i just hope you guys see the outline and try to fill the gaps... Lemme know what you think. ;D
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Post by Robert Drenk on Feb 8, 2012 16:21:55 GMT -5
That sounds great and all Derek but sponsors for the most part are not willing to take the risk in hopes of everyone showing up (Harrah's did that in Tahoe, huge awesome show & didn't have that great of a return)... They want "proof" they want to see the people first, they will want more than one event, most of the time big sponsors do package deals like 6-10 event sponsorships. It takes some heavy investing to make huge events happen especially when you’re talking about multiple events and cross country traveling. The key is TV, that is how were going to get exposure! Everything else will follow
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Post by Derek Smith on Feb 8, 2012 16:27:23 GMT -5
That sounds great and all Derek but sponsors for the most part are not willing to take the risk in hopes of everyone showing up (Harrah's did that in Tahoe, huge awesome show & didn't have that great of a return)... They want "proof" they want to see the people first, they will want more than one event, most of the time big sponsors do package deals like 6-10 event sponsorships. It takes some heavy investing to make huge events happen especially when you’re talking about multiple events and cross country traveling. The key is TV, that is how were going to get exposure! Everything else will follow Well thats why for this idea i am banking on everyones passion for the sport and it growing. We make sure we are there. You know we will be there all that needs to be there is money, then the best show, if they show then the caliber of the event just shot up, so the rest of us come. I know we could round up huge sponsors for the first tourney but if we all start something with everyone behind it, IT WILL GROW. IMO.
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Post by TK on Feb 8, 2012 16:36:09 GMT -5
That sounds great and all Derek but sponsors for the most part are not willing to take the risk in hopes of everyone showing up (Harrah's did that in Tahoe, huge awesome show & didn't have that great of a return)... They want "proof" they want to see the people first, they will want more than one event, most of the time big sponsors do package deals like 6-10 event sponsorships. It takes some heavy investing to make huge events happen especially when you’re talking about multiple events and cross country traveling. The key is TV, that is how were going to get exposure! Everything else will follow this is the what i'm running into myself...they want package back to back deals and with knowing AW'ers wont AW like that makes it harder......especially if it involves week to week traveling. most AW'ers do this on the side, different from other BIG sports where NFL players are expected to travel every week and paid DAm-n good to do it. TK
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 8, 2012 16:38:22 GMT -5
Thanks for responding, Robert. Valuable insight.
I have a question. In the past, armwrestling has done these things and had varying levels of exposure. Yukon Jack, ABC Wide World of Sports (this lasted for many years), WPAA... What all had in common is that the sport was not tailored to TV presentation the way ArmWars has been. I'm talking the actual format, not the production value. So the question is, how to recreate this but learning from the past and not just duplicating it.
World's Strongest Man has done pretty well for itself and seems to be a likely first goal for us. I have no illusions that we will be the UFC anytime soon. What do you think our prospects would be if someone were to meet with World's Strongest Man's team and possibly do some bundling? Our sport appeals to their existing fan base as well as is applicable to their existing sponsors. "World's Strongest Man - Armwrestling Division" could provide some variety of content for them that they wouldn't have to provide themselves. It would give them some fresh copy and give our sport some pull-through.
I think we'd all love to be a standalone product, but could it be easier to bundle and ride some coat tails instead of blazing trails all alone at first?
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Post by kyledarby on Feb 8, 2012 16:42:03 GMT -5
If you seek brand recognition or mainstream sponsorship you will probably find it a lost cause. The problem is most potential sponsors want you to coordinate it and fund it yourself. Then if it works they might pursue it. Most of us don't have the time and money for that gamble. But businesses perceive armwrestling the same.
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Post by Robert Drenk on Feb 8, 2012 16:44:11 GMT -5
John - You are 100% correct, I love that idea as well! I've been working on a few things... I'll keep you posted.
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