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Post by Pascal Girard on Jul 6, 2012 15:27:52 GMT -5
sorry but for this one... Denis was more clever than Andrey.... Andrey could do the same....
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Post by Pawel Rychter on Jul 6, 2012 15:49:21 GMT -5
arm resting on the triceps is perfectly legal as long as the elbow is with in the square edges of the pad I didn't know this
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Post by Charlie Minell on Jul 6, 2012 17:29:26 GMT -5
From the WAF-rules: "ITEM 3 A foul will be given when a competitor’s elbow loses contact with the elbow pad. A competitor is considered to lose contact with the pad when: a) The elbow lifts vertically off the pad, no matter how insignificant, as long as there is clearance between the pad and the elbow. It is NOT considered an elbow foul if the elbow has lifted off the pad, but the competitor still has contact with the elbow pad with their triceps or their forearm. b) An elbow foul will be called if the competitor is riding on their triceps or forearms and the elbow extends beyond any side of the elbow pad." According to WAF you can lift your elbow more than 10 inches up in the air and it's still called "armwrestling".... That's what I call a toproll. Michael isn't even near breaking the rules when it comes to lifting the elbow. There are about 9 inches more to go...
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Post by Giles Russell on Jul 6, 2012 21:41:08 GMT -5
long live the "CANADA GOOSE" then!!!
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Post by Tero Lampikari on Jul 7, 2012 2:18:19 GMT -5
Michael isn't even near breaking the rules when it comes to lifting the elbow. I believe that's right. From what I can find PAL uses WAF rules (updated 2009) as their guidelines www.armfight.eu/static/o/37ee16_waf-rules-en.pdfOther than elbow foul rules pulling in a dangerous position rules come in question regarding Michael's or George's style: • The word SHOULDER will be used to describe a dangerous position
Section 8 – Fouls Note: Two warnings will equal one foul. Two fouls, competitor will lose that particular match.
8.1.5 When a competitor starts to put themselves in a “dangerous position”, the referee will caution the competitor loudly so that the competitor understands the caution. Referee will instruct the competitor to face their competitive arm, so as to keep the hand, arm and shoulder in a straight line. Competitors must never force their shoulder inwards, ahead of their arm or hand, towards the table.THAT'S ALL! My interpretation is that it's Michael's job to pull and pin the opponent with whatever ways are accepted following the rules oversaw and monitored by the referee. If something is to be done to the current situation it is the responsibility of the ref and/or party governing the rules NOT Michael, George or anybody else. IMO rules do not seem to be clear and they should be addressed so that any and all uncertainties concerning this issue are CLEARED for everybody.
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Post by Tero Lampikari on Jul 7, 2012 2:39:57 GMT -5
What comes to the question "Is it still armwrestling?" IMO it is PROFESSIONAL SUPER MATCH armwrestling where opponents know the player using this style and they can try and prepare especially for it the best they can.
Rules should still be clear.
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Post by Eric Roussin on Jul 7, 2012 6:58:12 GMT -5
These discussions are difficult to have when WAF itself doesn't have its updated rules on its site.
One of the reasons the following rule was added many years ago was so that competitors with very muscular arms would not be penalized when the point of their elbow would lose contact with the pad (visualize an arm on the winning side of the table -- contact remains with the pad, but the elbow tip rises). I do not think the "dropping the shoulder below the table" style of pulling was considered at the time.
"ITEM 3 A foul will be given when a competitor’s elbow loses contact with the elbow pad. A competitor is considered to lose contact with the pad when:
a) The elbow lifts vertically off the pad, no matter how insignificant, as long as there is clearance between the pad and the elbow. It is NOT considered an elbow foul if the elbow has lifted off the pad, but the competitor still has contact with the elbow pad with their triceps or their forearm."
In 2007 or 2008, the following rule was added:
"d) 2) Competitors cannot drop the competing shoulder below the level of the elbow pad when in a neutral or losing position. This will be considered a dangerous position. The neutral position defined as the starting position down to 2/3 of the way to the losing side of the table. The humorous bone of the competing arm will not be inclined down and therefore elevating the elbow and dropping the shoulder below the elbow pad."
I know that more recently, there was an effort to reword many of the rules, but I don't know how these rules are currently worded because they are not on the WAF site.
I am fairly confident that the shoulder below the table in still in effect and should be called in events that use WAF rules.
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Herman Stevens
Gold Member
Team Bakersfield / Team Louisiana
Posts: 730
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Post by Herman Stevens on Jul 7, 2012 9:59:04 GMT -5
With respect to tricep on the pad, yes, you can raise your elbow, BUT there are other rules to check the abuse of this rule.
Can you raise your elbow 10 inches?? NOT LIKELY.
This is restricted due to the shoulder below the talbe or below parallel rules...If these rules are in the WAF or PAL rules, then it's seems impossible to raise your elbow that high. Also, it means that Michael still has work to do in order to be legal by the rulebook. He's very legal according to enforcement...They don't care so he does it. If speeding on the highway isn't enforced, we all speed.
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Post by David Owens on Jul 7, 2012 15:05:56 GMT -5
"d) 2) Competitors cannot drop the competing shoulder below the level of the elbow pad when in a neutral or losing position. This will be considered a dangerous position. The neutral position defined as the starting position down to 2/3 of the way to the losing side of the table. The humorous bone of the competing arm will not be inclined down and therefore elevating the elbow and dropping the shoulder below the elbow pad."
This is the key and what needs to be closely watched, like a said the refs at USAF unifieds did a great job of calling these fouls
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Post by Charlie Minell on Jul 7, 2012 15:50:51 GMT -5
With respect to tricep on the pad, yes, you can raise your elbow, BUT there are other rules to check the abuse of this rule. Can you raise your elbow 10 inches?? NOT LIKELY. This is restricted due to the shoulder below the talbe or below parallel rules... Maybe I'm not following exactly what you mean.. but I'm quite sure it could be done. If not 10 inches then at least 7-8. I'm not even sure the shoulder would need to be below the level of the elbow pad to be able to keep the elbow that high up in the air, but even if the shoulder would be below the pad it would still be legal as long as one would be in a winning position. (as Eric and David just quoted)
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Herman Stevens
Gold Member
Team Bakersfield / Team Louisiana
Posts: 730
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Post by Herman Stevens on Jul 7, 2012 15:52:54 GMT -5
I think you're focusing on the wrong things!!!
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Post by Charlie Minell on Jul 7, 2012 16:08:10 GMT -5
I think you're focusing on the wrong things!!! Why wouldn't it be something to focus on when probably most armwrestlers in the world incorrectly think it's not allowed to raise the elbow on the pad, when the truth is that it's the total opposite and it's perfectly legal to lift the elbow... actually as much as several inches, which is quite remarkable. Isn't it? I can't see why it ever would be wrong to highlight a widespread misunderstanding which creates both unnecessary debates and accusations against people who actually run their cards right. Your are of course entitled to your opinion and I won't try to change it. I'm just wondering what you mean.
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Herman Stevens
Gold Member
Team Bakersfield / Team Louisiana
Posts: 730
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Post by Herman Stevens on Jul 7, 2012 16:15:40 GMT -5
I never thought there was an issue with raising the elbow. My issue has been raising the elbow by dropping the shoulder below parallel.
If just the elbow issue is not understood, then fine, spread the good news. I didn't know that people didn't understand that part.
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Post by Charlie Minell on Jul 7, 2012 16:28:02 GMT -5
I see. Yes I would say it's a very common misunderstanding. The bad news is spread.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Jul 7, 2012 16:37:28 GMT -5
I am just a little confused...is the elbow allowed to be lifted off the pad as long as ur lying on ur triceps and the elbow is "over"the pad.
Is this correct?
If so, then whats the difference of all the HAND wrestlers who lifet their elbow up and it's still "over" the pad..
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