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Post by michaelmeador on Oct 21, 2012 2:05:02 GMT -5
Michael Meador, You called me moron? You are just a f..king idiot, listen guy you do not know me, but yes idiots like you are used to taking about people who they do not know. Listen idiot, he was 80kg in 2012 and is now 100kg, so he gaind 45lb in 7 years, if someone thinks that is not possible to do in a normal way then they have no idea about soprt. What 100lb are you talking about? You, think before writing, I did not offend you, but you offended me for no reason... Look at what you wrote again, Moron... Think before writing, Borat.
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Post by Joe Musselwhite on Oct 21, 2012 9:50:06 GMT -5
There's a simple explanation for this picture of Arsen. I've been involved in photography since 1999 in a professional capacity as well as just a hobby I love so I think I'm qualified to speak on this aspect of this thread.
What you're seeing here is a term called foreshortening. When a wide angle lens is used in photography and the photographer get's in real close to his subject (Arson) this illusion becomes apparent.
Objects in the foreground appear much larger than those in the background and the distance from foreground to background appears greater than actual reality. So what you have here is Arson's hands, forearms, arms, neck appearing much larger than what's in the background which is his legs. I don't believe for a second this image has been photoshopped. The artifacts simply aren't present. Artifacts is a technical term that forensic scientists that are experts in examining faked images look for in determining if an image has been manipulated.
Just an FYI the converse is true when a photographer is using a telephoto lens. The illusion then is one of compression. The foreground and background become compressed and objects become equal in size front to back and the distance between foreground and background appear crowded. A good example of this is in every newspaper sports page of baseball and football where the subject appears right up against the people in the stands.
Now for the steroid debate I would have to agree with RVJ that there's a lot of ignorance going on here and to debate this subject is nearly always fruitless. The best approach I've taken is to ask yourself the correct questions such as:
1) Define specifically just what it means to be natural.
2) Where does one draw the line on cheating? There's simply too many variables here.
3) I've seen no one mention the benefits of steroids for those that have been diagnosed with certain conditions that necessitate the use of the drug. Are they cheating by trying to get their levels up to normal? BTW, low levels of test are very unhealthy in numerous aspects of male physiology.
4) Acromegaly? This seems to be the go to response for those that have larger than normal features in certain areas of the body but what has not been mentioned is how one is diagnosed with the condition. It's not enough to say he's got larger than normal hands, feet, and facial features. It's not a simple as a blood test to compare hgh levels to normal levels. Blood tests only confirm elevated or low levels of hgh. There's a different test to determine what's causing the hgh levels to be so far out of range.
I could go on and on here for hours but the bottom line is if you don't know something why not simply say you don't know? To say that Lupkes is a user without actual knowledge of that statement is not only unfair, it's very disrespectful. It doesn't matter what you think or believe based on what you see. It matters if you actually have sound knowledge of what you're claiming or stating. Me personally, I would retract such a statement from this board.
If I want to believe that a dog is a cat, that doesn't make it so! It's not factual! It's your belief! It's really that simple!
If you want to believe someone is a user without actual, factual knowledge otherwise, then keeping it to yourself would be my response.
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Las Botha
Silver Member
South Africa
Posts: 298
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Post by Las Botha on Oct 21, 2012 11:12:17 GMT -5
Hi Joe.
I don't really know what the big deal is with the Arsen picture anyway. He doesn't look that impressive here. He calls himself the "Bad Shrek"...looks more like the evil non-genius twin of the Pilsbury Doughboy.
A lot of respect to that man, but he was pretty disrespectful toward Devon and Toddzilla, and Toddzilla is a better armwrestler anyway.
Though I do agree with your statement:
...I do not think it's damaging to have a lively discussion on the topic, and it is interesting to hear others' views afterall. As well, I do believe that we need to be able to know what a man or woman can achieve with his or her body "naturally".
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Las Botha
Silver Member
South Africa
Posts: 298
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Post by Las Botha on Oct 21, 2012 11:14:48 GMT -5
Ok Joe, I hear what you say, that we need to define what a "natural" athlete is, but most would agree using creatine and other supplements that stop short of major chemical re-engineering would not be taboo. Also, I guess point 3) is really something that Robin Chandler can help us answer...
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Post by Devon Larratt on Oct 21, 2012 12:45:20 GMT -5
I think this is a very interesting thread, and i feel that this is a time in history where perhaps preformance enhancing medications will get some light shed on them. I feel that during my life these medications have been somewhat of a taboo subject, but as time goes on, people get braver, and the amount of evidence that piles up makes the entire community curious and want open discussion and information. I believe that testing is a massive issue in armwrestling. Most people start down the road of physical/strength/health improvement and it leads them to armwrestling or some other activity. Armwrestling at a high competitive level is NOT healthy... for many reasons.. but it doesn;t stop us from doing it. THe modern question i believe is ... 1) if you do this activity are you actually going to be healthier if you use medications? (like after a car crash) 2) How does one put in a testing plan that actually works. financially and is effective. and is this what the sport needs?
More back to the topic, since i heard my name. I am a natural athlete. What i have done can be accomplished without medicines. at about 18-19 years i was a very hungry very very skinny 205. my first 2 tournaments i cut to the 198 lb class. I shortly afterwards got a unique job that gave me 2 interesting nutritional plans. sometimes it is an all you can eat buffet every meal, and then for long periods of time you are way under caloried and way depleted. as soon as i got this job i went to 220-225 lbs. i stayed at this weight for a few years, dieting down to 220 for most tournaments. this became harder, and i started to go after heavy weights anyways, so it crept with time to 230 235 and then i was done going after the weight class 220. During this time frame (ages 20 - 34 about) i was focused on gaining size and strength. I would at times get to eat all i wanted, i would always eat a massive meal before bedtime. I would use creatine monohydrate before most competitions or a period of 3 to 6 weeks. i have used other supplements - vasodialtors, amminos, protien, but i think for the most part creatine is the only one that made any real difference. so you could say that at 21 yrs i was a ripped up 225 lb guy who was very healthy, at about 25-26 i was 235 very healthy, and i was able to get my weight to settle at 240ish for the rest of my life so far. with intense trainning, limitless calories, and creatine i was able to get to 253 lbs for a short time (i think i was a bit fat). the heaviest i ever competed was 247 against John Brzenk i think i was 33, i normally compete around 240-45, depending on how much food and how much trainning i can get.
I am drug tested periodically, but i have never been tested for competition. I have said before that i am willing to test at any time, competition or not. I think it would be a good thing for the sport. It is a great step that the WAF is testing. Unfortunatley for many athletes, financially speaking the WAF is a completely unresponsible choice.... provincials, nationals, worlds, all unpaid, expenses, time off.. if your country doesn;t recognise the sport and you go... in my opinion.. your crazy. Countries need to get armwrestling recognized and their athletes taken care of.
to summarize - I don;t have any great answers. I am not a promoter, i do not fully understand their struggles and their responsibilities. I do feel as an athlete if you armwrestle at a high level your body will pay for your fun one way or another. THe bigger the match, the bigger the glory the bigger the pain. you can reach the top clean, but you will hurt. maybe more than the guy who takes medicine, maybe less in other ways, either way.. it would be great if some doctors really took a good un biased look at what we do.
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Post by kyledarby on Oct 21, 2012 13:06:07 GMT -5
^^^ THE END
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Las Botha
Silver Member
South Africa
Posts: 298
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Post by Las Botha on Oct 21, 2012 13:30:13 GMT -5
... I shortly afterwards got a unique job that gave me 2 interesting nutritional plans... Hi Devon, This "unique job" wouldn't happen to be fulltime marriage, would it? All-you-can-eat buffet when you're good, long periods of depletion when you're in the dogbox hahaha ;D ============================================== Well to summarize, Devon raises 5 important points here:1) All armwrestlers become imbalanced- it's unhealthy at highlevel competition. 2) What Devon has accomplished can be done without "medicines". 3) Those that take these substances could possibly have a more injury-free career, or recover faster. 4) The world champion takes the initiative and volunteers for drugtests throughout the year, and that it is a good thing for the sport in general. 5) AW/WAF promotion, financial and recognition issues, of which most of us are probably unqualified to weigh in on. Difficult issue, but that testing is a good and important step taken by WAF. ============================================== Devon, for the sake of a more technical and healthy discussion here, I believe points 1-3 should be dwelled upon first, and in that order. 1) It struck me most in 2 of your InTheHook.com and Crossfit videos that you are adamant that all armwrestlers become imbalanced, and as you put it; need to become more balanced so that they can progress further out of balance. This is unpleasant news for the novice, but could you prehaps expand on that please? Is thjere more to it than rest, recovery, rehab and cycling your body through seasons of other activities? (John Brzenk stated in his Q&A forum a few years ago that armwrestlers have no such thing as an off- or preseason. Your views seem to be opposed- he would seem to be a proponent of pulling constantly throughout the year on the practice table...and eat pizza and cookies). 2) Together with the answer in point 1) and considering point 4), the benefit of the doubt (if there are any to begin with) goes to you, and this is a huge encouragement to all athletes in the sport. 3) And here is the contentious subject. You did briefly touch upon this point, are you willing to elaborate? It's obvioius that users want this highlighted advantage. What is your opinion of those that choose to risk use, if you will? (and specifically related to the image and growth of this sport).
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Las Botha
Silver Member
South Africa
Posts: 298
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Post by Las Botha on Oct 21, 2012 13:34:10 GMT -5
not really, just the beginning for some healthy discussion. I am enthusiastic about his remark: "..it would be great if some doctors really took a good un biased look at what we do." Hopefully we can get some doctors onboard. Also, when Devon says that the non-user wil hurt more than the user in some ways...."maybe less in other ways", he might be referring to reputation and/or long-term health, and in that case there is a minefield here.
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Post by Tomasz Sypniewski on Oct 21, 2012 16:15:47 GMT -5
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Post by kyledarby on Oct 22, 2012 2:42:20 GMT -5
Eish! Let me summarize that: "...we really need to establish what a man can achieve naturally before even beginning to suspect a person." "...some are ectomorphs, some endomorphs and other meso. We store fat differently and build differently, use our nutrion slightly differntly." "...40-50pounds is not that much for a man coming up through his early 20's, coming into his man-strength and mass over a period of 2-3 years, naturally." [please provide us with some kind of timeframe under which this should be impossible to achieve naturally for ALL body types. THEN we have something to work from] "...Devon Larratt is awesome...you should get out more" ;D I think Rob is trying to make it simple. All these paramaters have neen established through decades of bodybuilding and powerlifting. Look at early athletes size, structure, definition, muscle density, ect and it's obvious it has clearly evolved. If someone believes it was obtained naturally you're a fool. I said it before ask some of the legendd and pioneers about the explosion of supplement abuse compared to the 70's and 80's. PM them and ask just don't be shocked by the responses.
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Post by Zach Creel on Oct 22, 2012 7:27:50 GMT -5
Devon also stated in one of his videos that Crossfit was what he attributed going from 220 to 240lbs. I think everyone knows that no workout is going to make you gain weight like that. I do think you can see a huge difference in his size from now and a few years ago, but for all i know it could just be a better diet and different training methods. Sorry Zach, I'm gonna have to disagree with you. First of all, Devon has been 10 pounds heavier in the past, not the other way around as you claim. He was 235 when he beat Tim Bresnan just recently, and I don't mean the cricket player. Secondly, are you then basically saying that you believe Devon is on roids, or was using? Thirdly, that crossfit video was a few years back, and I believe he said, 225 and he went up to 240. 15 pounds in half a year or so is nothing if your body has room to pack that on very naturally with that big frame of his. I think a lot of guys might look at a weigh oscillation of a super heavyweight, and relate that to their class, which would be relatively less, and they don't want to easily believe a man can accomplish that in their limited experience. I'm not sure you mean Zach... But ok ;D No I am not saying he was on roids. I wouldn't accuse anyone of that who i didn't know unless its obvious like some of the monsters overseas. I was speaking in terms of the crossfit gaining weight. I don't know anything about steroids to be honest. Never done it or even considered it. If i did I would not be able to do my job. Even though there are those who do what I do and use steroids. But thats a different convo for a different day haha In the video I am speaking of he said " I was 225 and bam in a few months i was 240 ". I know that is completely achievable without any substance. To me i thought he was saying crossfit is the sole reason for packing on 15lbs. And I think diet is the part that he left out. I don't see anything about his physique that would suggest using steroids. My younger is brother is 6'2 195lbs and got extremely strong (benching 300+) once he got to chiropractor school and learned about core strength and how muscle imbalances are the main cause of injuries and was around guys who actually know what they are talking about. He has really emphasized to me the importance of being balanced. I think that Devons preparation against his opponents is well documented for being second to none and i can only imagine that his workouts/diets are the same way so that is what I would attribute his success too. I don't know what exactly you are disagreeing with unless you thought i was suggesting he was on a PED. Everyone should know that crossfit by itself is not going to pack on weight. Thats all i was speaking of.
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Las Botha
Silver Member
South Africa
Posts: 298
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Post by Las Botha on Oct 22, 2012 10:21:39 GMT -5
I think Rob is trying to make it simple. All these paramaters have neen established through decades of bodybuilding and powerlifting. Look at early athletes size, structure, definition, muscle density, ect and it's obvious it has clearly evolved. If someone believes it was obtained naturally you're a fool. I said it before ask some of the legendd and pioneers about the explosion of supplement abuse compared to the 70's and 80's. PM them and ask just don't be shocked by the responses. Hi Kyle, I don't think I would be shocked by the responses, it depends on what you mean by "supplement abuse". Concerning my reply to Rob, I tried to highlight the importance of making those "parameters" known. Why not give us a few simple details in this thread that already has sufficient time and attention devoted to it? In my opinion, natural athletes throughout the decades, as you put it, have mostly evolved in their approach to training and nutrition. We have a more scientific approach to training routines and seasonal cycles that get the most out of an individual's body type in combination with the chosen discipline. On the nutrition front, massive gains in understanding of correct nutrion, including supplementation. We are not going as far as to say steroids fall into this category. It is therefore that I feel it is firstly important to prove what can be done naturally NOWADAYS in body performance and aesthetics before that becomes a legitmate critea for arbitrarily condemning an athlete. No doubt these things have evolved. Then by definition don't leave lagging our understanding of what a modern natural athlete is.
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Las Botha
Silver Member
South Africa
Posts: 298
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Post by Las Botha on Oct 22, 2012 10:46:23 GMT -5
Sorry Zach, I'm gonna have to disagree with you.
First of all, Devon has been 10 pounds heavier in the past, not the other way around as you claim. He was 235 when he beat Tim Bresnan just recently, and I don't mean the cricket player.
Secondly, are you then basically saying that you believe Devon is on roids, or was using?
Thirdly, that crossfit video was a few years back, and I believe he said, 225 and he went up to 240. 15 pounds in half a year or so is nothing if your body has room to pack that on very naturally with that big frame of his.
I think a lot of guys might look at a weigh oscillation of a super heavyweight, and relate that to their class, which would be relatively less, and they don't want to easily believe a man can accomplish that in their limited experience. I'm not sure you mean Zach... But ok ;D No I am not saying he was on roids. I wouldn't accuse anyone of that who i didn't know unless its obvious like some of the monsters overseas. I was speaking in terms of the crossfit gaining weight. I don't know anything about steroids to be honest. Never done it or even considered it. If i did I would not be able to do my job. Even though there are those who do what I do and use steroids. But thats a different convo for a different day haha Hi Zach, I just asked in the manner that I did because you stated: "I think everyone knows that no workout is going to make you gain weight like that. I do think you can see a huge difference in his size from now and a few years ago..."There are 2 fallacies in this quote and the obvious assumption to the first is that you suspect Devon must have used performance-enhancing drugs to accomplish what the workout itself couldn't. Thank you for clarifying that. You last sentence in the first quote above was ambiguous. Very much worth delving into, I would love for you to expand on that, and especially how this relates to armwrestling and how it can help all of us. I tried to coax Devon into sharing with us hahaha ;D looks like he's gonna be selfish- I guess the super duper can crusher of the universe needs to keep some secrects to himself hey Just kidding, Devon has been very generous with the information he shares, and is definitely the biggest influence in my development to ultimately crush him one day in his prime...7 years... 7years... I think as far as most of us know, yeah, definitely. His dedication, fun-loving nature, insatiable competitive streak and intact fighting spirit is everything in a rolemodel that can possibly be asked for. Yes, thank you for taking the time to explain, your answer's above.
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Post by David Harutyunyan on Oct 22, 2012 18:24:04 GMT -5
Michael Meador,
this is my last post addressed to you. It must be a huge shame for an adult man to act like you, because you act like a todler. Offending people you have never seen only because you are unreachable is definitely a kid's job. I have seen many like that, but you know they change radically like a pancy when you meet them in real.
One more thing: If someone is arrdessing something to me then be clear please if you are a man, that I can answer you!!!
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Post by Zach Creel on Oct 22, 2012 19:10:50 GMT -5
Sorry Zach, I'm gonna have to disagree with you.
First of all, Devon has been 10 pounds heavier in the past, not the other way around as you claim. He was 235 when he beat Tim Bresnan just recently, and I don't mean the cricket player.
Secondly, are you then basically saying that you believe Devon is on roids, or was using?
Thirdly, that crossfit video was a few years back, and I believe he said, 225 and he went up to 240. 15 pounds in half a year or so is nothing if your body has room to pack that on very naturally with that big frame of his.
I think a lot of guys might look at a weigh oscillation of a super heavyweight, and relate that to their class, which would be relatively less, and they don't want to easily believe a man can accomplish that in their limited experience. I'm not sure you mean Zach... But ok ;D Hi Zach, I just asked in the manner that I did because you stated: "I think everyone knows that no workout is going to make you gain weight like that. I do think you can see a huge difference in his size from now and a few years ago..."There are 2 fallacies in this quote and the obvious assumption to the first is that you suspect Devon must have used performance-enhancing drugs to accomplish what the workout itself couldn't. Thank you for clarifying that. You last sentence in the first quote above was ambiguous. Very much worth delving into, I would love for you to expand on that, and especially how this relates to armwrestling and how it can help all of us. I tried to coax Devon into sharing with us hahaha ;D looks like he's gonna be selfish- I guess the super duper can crusher of the universe needs to keep some secrects to himself hey Just kidding, Devon has been very generous with the information he shares, and is definitely the biggest influence in my development to ultimately crush him one day in his prime...7 years... 7years... I think as far as most of us know, yeah, definitely. His dedication, fun-loving nature, insatiable competitive streak and intact fighting spirit is everything in a rolemodel that can possibly be asked for. Yes, thank you for taking the time to explain, your answer's above. No problem. I cant really go into much more detail because I am just throwing up what little information that I actually remembered. The one thing that he emphasized ALOT was exactly what Devon said and that is about being balanced. Its extremely underrated. I don't think AWers give enough attention to how much your core is actually involved in pulling. An extremely high majority of injuries that are suffered are do to muscle imbalances. That is what is so great about crossfit. Personally, I hate crossfit. I hate anything that involves alot of reps, but doing the compound exercises that are affiliated with crossfit are some of the best ways to work your core and to be balanced.
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