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Post by Bull Dog Madore on Aug 29, 2012 23:09:20 GMT -5
So I'm a greenhorn to this awesome sport and my question is this: Is there such thing as over training? And if so, is there a certain degree to which it's ok to over train? I'm told by some reputable pullers who've been around the sport for a very long time that you don't want to over train in the gym or on the table. That you have to give your body time to recoup in between. My thought to this is you take farmers, plummers, welders, masons, etc. They work the same muscle groups everyday muscles are dog tired over and over again until their muscles adjust to the demand where the result is that they are much stronger than before. Couldn't I train the same way everyday with similar gains? Anyway just want to see what people's opinions are on it. Thanks.
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Josh McEllrath
Gold Member
National Champion
PNW Armwreckers
Posts: 508
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Post by Josh McEllrath on Aug 30, 2012 0:05:54 GMT -5
Yes you can overtrain, and no it is not good in AW. Hit it hard for a couple of weeks and take a week off. Pulling through constant soreness is dangerous. You do get used to the pain and can ignore it, but what if you have done damage and it doesn't get better? I've seen people tear muscles, rip ligaments off bones, and break arms. All because they didn't rest. Rest should be just as important as the work you are putting into getting better. Feeling strong and rested is a huge boost to your mental confidence, let's face it winning starts in your head.
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Post by Gary Kessler on Aug 30, 2012 6:08:27 GMT -5
I would like to see what Rob Vigeant Jr. has to say about over training, I say you ride it until it breaks...
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Post by Toddzilla on Aug 30, 2012 6:08:59 GMT -5
I suppose overtraining is possible,but it is rare. More armwrestlers are undertrained than over trained.
Your observation of farmers, masons etc. is pertinent if you acknowledge they require high volume low intensity exertion.
You could make similiar gains if you wanted to spend years developing a similar ability, say curling a 25 pound dumbell for 10 hours.
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Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on Aug 30, 2012 6:22:35 GMT -5
I think if you are going to failure regularly and getting that hard negative resistance... It's easy to over do it. All my trainings I go to max failure and negatives that rip me open... Been doing those twice a week AW specific. I felt broken at practice because I need a rest... I think ?.., I never knew the whole rest/repair science... But I do understand working out and if you are working out real hard and your strength is dipping... You need a break. Last week I worked out with a very strong group on the table with a lot of extra tension added from a resistance band... I felt pretty stout... Then did heavy lifting and negatives 3 days later. 4 days after that... Table again... Same guys... I didn't even look at the band.... I was struggling to stay in position with almost every guy there without resistance. I need a break... It's the only logical thing.... I have been eating well, sleeping and what not... I'm just cramming too much too soon. I'm gonna take this week off from the gym and go to practice wed.... I'll let you guys know the difference
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Post by Shawn Lattimer on Aug 30, 2012 7:01:10 GMT -5
Semantics to most people, but I think this is an important point: Its not over training-------its under recovering. Your body can handle the training just fine if it can recover.
Rob is correct in his analysis----when you stop making gains and start to feel weaker, you need to recover. That means taking an easy week or skipping a workout or a practice to let yourself heal. Its usually not the muscle that needs to recover either, its the tendons in armwrestling.
I've experienced this a lot in powerlifting. You can only train balls out just so long before you need to back down for some extra recovery. Back when I was really pushing myself, that was about 5 weeks before I needed a down week. If I tried to train through it, I started reversing my progress.
If you are really training hard-----understanding recovery becomes very important.
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Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on Aug 30, 2012 10:05:30 GMT -5
I suppose overtraining is possible,but it is rare. More armwrestlers are undertrained than over trained. Your observation of farmers, masons etc. is pertinent if you acknowledge they require high volume low intensity exertion. You could make similiar gains if you wanted to spend years developing a similar ability, say curling a 25 pound dumbell for 10 hours. I agree to an extent.. There are factors that make it different.. I did drywall work, those guys had strong hands and arms from pinching the sheets and reverse curling them all day. For the first week you are sore, then the body adapts. Once the body adapts to the load unless it's pushed beyond its limits again it has no reason to defensively grow stronger.at a point those guys handle 80lb sheets all day.. 10 hrs a day... Easily..but when we would get oversized sheets or core board that was like 120... None of them could get it to come off the ground at all. At the 5 year mark you are still handling the same sheets that your body already adapted to in your first two weeks... So how can you get stronger ?.. Handling the same weight was what you were used to regardless of how much you did it. In reality you are better off lifting at your limits once or twice than mediocre all day.... As far as strength is concerned. This theory will get you stronger than your average bear, and might give a great foundation, but in the world of competition you treat your body every week like it was that first week... Unfamiliar load... Force the body to change. Sometimes pushing the envelope and trying to force too much change in a short time gets counterproductive ... That equals overtraining .
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Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on Aug 30, 2012 10:08:53 GMT -5
Nice post Shawn.... Ironically, I'm at the 5-6 week mark of hitting it hard ...felt like a mule last week and last night felt very sub par
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Post by Nate Gagnon on Aug 30, 2012 10:52:53 GMT -5
Very good question and I agree that recovery/rest should be treated as importantly as training. You grow outside of practice/gym when you're eating, sleeping, resting--proper nutrition, supplementation and REST goes a long way. That's the theory I've always had when powerlifting/bodybuilding and now have tried to adapt it to my new love for AW.
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Post by Shawn Lattimer on Aug 30, 2012 10:53:52 GMT -5
Nice post Shawn.... Ironically, I'm at the 5-6 week mark of hitting it hard ...felt like a mule last week and last night felt very sub par I can believe it. Been there, done that. I do think most people never actually push themselves hard enough to actually over train, so for most this entire topic is useless..... ;D
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Post by Shawn Lattimer on Aug 30, 2012 10:54:41 GMT -5
I suppose overtraining is possible,but it is rare. More armwrestlers are undertrained than over trained. Your observation of farmers, masons etc. is pertinent if you acknowledge they require high volume low intensity exertion. You could make similiar gains if you wanted to spend years developing a similar ability, say curling a 25 pound dumbell for 10 hours. I agree to an extent.. There are factors that make it different.. I did drywall work, those guys had strong hands and arms from pinching the sheets and reverse curling them all day. For the first week you are sore, then the body adapts. Once the body adapts to the load unless it's pushed beyond its limits again it has no reason to defensively grow stronger.at a point those guys handle 80lb sheets all day.. 10 hrs a day... Easily..but when we would get oversized sheets or core board that was like 120... None of them could get it to come off the ground at all. At the 5 year mark you are still handling the same sheets that your body already adapted to in your first two weeks... So how can you get stronger ?.. Handling the same weight was what you were used to regardless of how much you did it. In reality you are better off lifting at your limits once or twice than mediocre all day.... As far as strength is concerned. This theory will get you stronger than your average bear, and might give a great foundation, but in the world of competition you treat your body every week like it was that first week... Unfamiliar load... Force the body to change. Sometimes pushing the envelope and trying to force too much change in a short time gets counterproductive ... That equals overtraining . To add to that, how many people do you see in the gym who do the same thing every workout and never experience any gains? Same concept.
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Post by Bull Dog Madore on Aug 30, 2012 12:48:17 GMT -5
Awesome feedback! Obviously as everyone knows that everyone is different and I'll use this info to tailor my existing routine. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to write. By my one year mark in Feb. I hope to be a totally different AWer! Thanks!
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Post by Toddzilla on Aug 30, 2012 13:42:08 GMT -5
Power lifting is orders of magnitude more taxing than arm wrestling.
Exhibit A: At the end of a World Level competition power lifters shut down with both shins bleeding, their back in spasms and both eyes hemorrhaged. Arm wrestlers grab a few drinks and pull for 2-3 hours at the after party.
Thus I could make a case compelling enough to convince the Casey Anthony jury that if power lifters need 2-3 days a week recovery arm wrestlers would, by correlation, need 1-2 days recovery every 5 weeks. A caveat, most people do not train arm wrestling exclusively. If one trains arm wrestling in conjunction with power lifting, bodybuilding, MMA or CrossFit then they need to recover from the cumulative effects of all their training.
I continue to search for the Unified Theory of Arm wrestling Training, but I think I discovered an axiom that "idle time inhibits tendon recovery" I believe what the Russians termed "Active Rest" rehabilitates tendons. Is Active Rest considered training, recovery or time off? I consider it training, but don't want to knife fight about it.
Louie Simmons says "3 weeks off from training a specific strength results in a 10% decrease in strength". He doesn't say if this is a linear drop off or when the drop off begins.
With all that said, the greatest arm wrestler in the world has a rest to training ratio at least 10 times higher than my own.
What I believe flys in the face of what I know.
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Post by Mike Giannelli on Aug 30, 2012 13:54:48 GMT -5
Great thread. I too have recently begun training differently and consider longer rest periods between training and tournaments to be beneficial. I also had a mental thing that If I didnt train hard at least 2 weeks leading up to a tournament and light training up to 3 days prior to tournament, that I would feel weak at game time. I know now that I was wrong. Training all-round for AW is wrong. Training HARD for AW is the right way to go, MAX out AW specific exercises, Heavy weight and low reps. I've been doing this for roughly 2 months and I'm sore like I never was before, and I've been going to the gym for almost 5 years. In that time, I've been fit, and feel good, but I never understood my potential until I started questioning what/why I was doing in the gym. I know that I need to consistently change the types of lifting/training that I do in order to feel BROKEN! Its is a great feeling to have, and if I don't feel sore the next day, I know I did something wrong. Doing the same thing week in and week out is only going to hit that one group or muscle. Nothing will ever beat table time, but AW specific training is a big supplement. My new rule of thumb is if I'm too sore to have a good practice, then I'm going to rest that week. Recovery is just as, if not more important than gains as stated by others.
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Post by Brian Burgos on Aug 30, 2012 14:41:51 GMT -5
A power lifting buddy of mine suggested a certain type of training where you train 3 types of intensities each session every week. I've recently incorporated this into my training and have seen some great gains. Below is what I'm currently using for my AW specific training.
Monday: Speed and Moderate intensity Thursday: High Intensity (Table time with group/ Heavy static holds on a table with Bands) Saturday: High Volume low intensity (normally with weights hitting about 12 reps per exercise) Tuesdays for me are normally heavy grip days and I also do a High volume grip work right after my Saturday sessions.
Other routines I've seen work for people are 2 high intensity days per week or 1 high intensity and 1 volume day per week. Anything more than 2 high intensity workouts per week might break down your body too much not giving it time to heal but it all depends on your body.
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