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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Sept 19, 2012 12:19:11 GMT -5
I was watching Liliev and Kasis matches. And before you took over as Ref. it appeared that liliev "PULLED" Kasis elbow off the front of the pad, ON PURPOSE...And he was awarded the match....
Is this allowed, IF done purposely?
Sermerenko IS FAMOUS for this AND also PUSHING his opponents elbow OFF the back of the pad...IVAKIN TOO...
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Post by Robin the manhandler Chandler on Sept 19, 2012 12:26:55 GMT -5
Nice question i heard pushing off pad is illegal but never thought about pulling off pad
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Post by David Owens on Sept 19, 2012 16:10:56 GMT -5
Good question
"Intentionally causing your opponent to foul will result in a foul for you and no foul for your opponent."
However I would assume once the match starts if back pressure causes your opponent to lift his elbow he is just elbow fouling since he must keep his elbow down and it would be tough to determine weather it was intentional or coincidental.
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Post by Leonard Harkless on Sept 19, 2012 16:38:56 GMT -5
I was watching Liliev and Kasis matches. And before you took over as Ref. it appeared that liliev "PULLED" Kasis elbow off the front of the pad, ON PURPOSE...And he was awarded the match.... Is this allowed, IF done purposely? Sermerenko IS FAMOUS for this AND also PUSHING his opponents elbow OFF the back of the pad...IVAKIN TOO... Here is the exact rule e) Any obviously intentional action that causes your opponent to get a foul will result in no foul for the opponent and you receiving the foul instead. Example obviously intentionally pushing your opponent off the back of the elbow pad. Now to answer your question, the action has to have no other reason than to create a foul. The back pressure move has an armwrestling bases where just shoving straight forward to take your opponent off of the back of the pad is not an armwrestling move. There can be no question in the referees mind that their only intent was to create a foul. LH |
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Sept 19, 2012 16:58:03 GMT -5
I was watching Liliev and Kasis matches. And before you took over as Ref. it appeared that liliev "PULLED" Kasis elbow off the front of the pad, ON PURPOSE...And he was awarded the match.... Is this allowed, IF done purposely? Sermerenko IS FAMOUS for this AND also PUSHING his opponents elbow OFF the back of the pad...IVAKIN TOO... Here is the exact rule e) Any obviously intentional action that causes your opponent to get a foul will result in no foul for the opponent and you receiving the foul instead. Example obviously intentionally pushing your opponent off the back of the elbow pad. Now to answer your question, the action has to have no other reason than to create a foul. The back pressure move has an armwrestling bases where just shoving straight forward to take your opponent off of the back of the pad is not an armwrestling move. There can be no question in the referees mind that their only intent was to create a foul. LH THANK U |
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Post by Alan Berget on Sept 19, 2012 18:51:43 GMT -5
Yeah but you can intentionally pull someone off the pad also
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Post by Rocky Kephart on Sept 19, 2012 19:24:11 GMT -5
IMO....When the match starts, I'm going to do everything I can to get you on my side of the table for the win...Back pressure,up pressure....etc.if your lats aren't strong enough to keep your elbow on the pad,not my problem. Pushing someone backwards is obvious for its not an armwrestling move...question is how the heck does Arson Liliev keep his own elbow on the pad...he gets away with it too often.
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Post by Simon Berriochoa on Sept 20, 2012 16:52:10 GMT -5
I disagree...
Armwrestling is about pushing and pulling, a shoulder roll or press are both pushing moves that can, (depending upon the type of move your opponent is using) push your opponent off the pad. I think "action having no other reason but to create a foul" is horribly speculative. If an athlete is at the front of the pad and you lat drag back and to your right, (right handed) with everything you have to pull him off, the ref gets to speculate that is OK because pulling is a "legitimate" attempt to win despite the fact that you went to your losing side to do it? An out and around move against me is more effective because I have to hold my elbow to the pad causing pressure on my hand that it may not be able to handle, thus opening it up... despite the fact that you went to the losing side to do it.
If I end up in a low lat drag match with someone and they are winning it.. then pushing/coming forward to use my weight and momentum to crash down on the arm and use his pulling application against him is a part of armwrestling. IMO this rule is the equivalent of saying that in a sumo match where you are up pushed up against the outer ring that you cannot just change your pushing to a pulling and side step letting your opponents own momentum carry them out of the ring.
This rule should be removed because it specifically targets a particular kind of pulling, everyone is responsible for their own elbow anywhere on the pad and targeting a style of pulling with a rule like this is wrong.
On this same vein, intentional slips, generally they should be abolished, I have ranted on that too many times already. However, this nuance rule around intentional slips being caused by rotating forward such as in a flop wristed press.... this again targets a specific type of pulling, thus removing it from the arsenal of the sportsman.
Armwrestling is about pushing and pulling a good shoulder roll requires you to rotate forward a good flop wristed press the same, why is it appropriate to subjectively make rules targeting a perfectly legitimate way to pull when in reality it is likely the other guy is attempting a lose handed top roll causing you to potentially press in the first place rather than get blasted outside?
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Post by Alan Berget on Sept 20, 2012 19:29:20 GMT -5
Yes but you can be in a tough pull and start losing and intentionally push your opponents elbow off the pad to get a restart and is pretty obvious when it happens. As for the wet fish move, yes it is a style but when your not hanging on to the grip to intentionally get to the straps thus relying on your opponent to keep the grip. Again this is also obvious. A good ref can determine if these are caused intentionally or not
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Post by Simon Berriochoa on Sept 21, 2012 8:37:50 GMT -5
Yes Alan I agree you can, however under your same example you can also pull them off the front of the pad to give them the same elbow foul with the same intent but somehow that is ok? About slipping I could not disagree more, as I have said out here many times, when guys initiate a top roll where they intentionally remove their palm from the palm of their opponent then they are obviously clearly and intentionally initiating a slip, and they should be fouled under the slip rule for doing so  .. they are intentionally pulling in a manner that has them leaving the grip, they removed their palm from the palm of their opponent, (like your avatar picture appears to be).  . If both pullers go that way then OK, but when only one person moves to leave the palm, then who is intentionally initiating the loss of contact of the grip and causing the potential slip? It is very far from obvious, if it was the WAF would not have had to continue to update the rules and even the manner in which it tells the refs to watch for actions to call intentional slips. The WAF "watch" for forward rotation is not a rule, it is simply a guideline "something to look for" that WAF refs are calling like a rule, doing so incorrectly in my opinion. Jerry C pulls in the limp wrist position almost exclusively and most of his matches end in straight pins absent the strap as I seem to recall, so we cannot say that forward pushing in that fashion or that causes your opponent to elbow foul is the basis of rule breaking and then say pulling outward and doing the same things, (letting go of the grip and or pulling your opponent off the pad for an elbow foul) are perfectly ok. You simply cannot target certain styles and handicap them like that it is simply not logical. This is armwrestling for christ sake, if you go off the pad for any reason you get a foul, if you slip for any reason you get a strap, matches need to end in pins not administrative rulings and inventing ways to make subjective calls is the worst of all paths in any sport. Note on straps.... a strap should be designed to pin the hands together not the wrists, doing this will eliminate people using their arm to control the hand via the strap and will instead simply bind the hands as it was meant to do, this would eliminate the, "he is really good in the strap" complaining because only the competitors hands are bound palm to palm so there is no use of the wrist/arm to compound leverage against the hand from the attachment of the strap. |
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Post by Leonard Harkless on Sept 21, 2012 9:13:53 GMT -5
Yes Alan I agree you can, however under your same example you can also pull them off the front of the pad to give them the same elbow foul with the same intent but somehow that is ok? About slipping I could not disagree more, as I have said out here many times, when guys initiate a top roll where they intentionally remove their palm from the palm of their opponent then they are obviously clearly and intentionally initiating a slip, and they should be fouled under the slip rule for doing so .. they are intentionally pulling in a manner that has them leaving the grip, they removed their palm from the palm of their opponent, (like your avatar picture appears to be). . If both pullers go that way then OK, but when only one person moves to leave the palm, then who is intentionally initiating the loss of contact of the grip and causing the potential slip? It is very far from obvious, if it was the WAF would not have had to continue to update the rules and even the manner in which it tells the refs to watch for actions to call intentional slips. The WAF "watch" for forward rotation is not a rule, it is simply a guideline "something to look for" that WAF refs are calling like a rule, doing so incorrectly in my opinion. Jerry C pulls in the limp wrist position almost exclusively and most of his matches end in straight pins absent the strap as I seem to recall, so we cannot say that forward pushing in that fashion or that causes your opponent to elbow foul is the basis of rule breaking and then say pulling outward and doing the same things, (letting go of the grip and or pulling your opponent off the pad for an elbow foul) are perfectly ok. You simply cannot target certain styles and handicap them like that it is simply not logical. This is armwrestling for christ sake, if you go off the pad for any reason you get a foul, if you slip for any reason you get a strap, matches need to end in pins not administrative rulings and inventing ways to make subjective calls is the worst of all paths in any sport. Note on straps.... a strap should be designed to pin the hands together not the wrists, doing this will eliminate people using their arm to control the hand via the strap and will instead simply bind the hands as it was meant to do, this would eliminate the, "he is really good in the strap" complaining because only the competitors hands are bound palm to palm so there is no use of the wrist/arm to compound leverage against the hand from the attachment of the strap. I will paste the exact wording of the slip rules but some have suggested that we do as Neil Pickup has done and say that all slips should go to the straps no matter what and where they are done. As for the intentional push off, it is rarely called because the referees do understand the call and rarely does someone do it where there is no doubt of the intent. Note in particular from the slip rules item number d) this is a crucial part of the rules. Slips and Straps The referee will call one foul for “Intentional slip out” when: a) You lift your fingers off your opponent’s hand prior to a slippage b) You close your fingers as to make a fist inside your opponent’s hand c) You’re in break wrist position and you pull your fingers inside your opponent’s hand, therefore you are unable to hold your grip. d) Straps will be used when any match ends by way of a slip-out not resulting in a foul. A slip-out occurs when both competitors have lost complete contact with one another. The official must be certain of the circumstances preceding the actual slip out before calling a foul. If the official is uncertain as to who caused the slippage or it was caused by the actions of both competitors, then straps will be used and NO FOUL will be given. e) When straps are employed, the officials will ask competitors to place their elbows to the back of their respective elbow pads, place their hands palm to palm, fingers extended and thumbs up. Opposite hand will grip hand peg. In this position the strap can be quickly installed. Only the official can adjust the strap. Competitors may ask to loosen it or move it if it’s uncomfortable. The strap cannot be lower than 1" below the natural wrist line. f) After the strap is installed, competitors may take their grip and place their elbow to their choice of position unless in a refs grip. g) If a competitor intentionally slips out during the match in a losing position (losing position is determined by being more than 2/3 rd of the way down to the pin pad), the competitor will lose that particular match. Any intentional slip is an automatic FOUL. |
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Post by John Wilson on Sept 21, 2012 9:35:27 GMT -5
CHANGE. THE. DAMNED. TABLE.
Everything about this table is geared towards putting the match into the ref's hands instead of forcing two guys to keep pulling.
Rules are only the answer when no good answer is left.
SOLVE THE PROBLEM, DON'T REGULATE IT AFTER THE FACT.
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Post by Leonard Harkless on Sept 21, 2012 9:45:55 GMT -5
CHANGE. THE. DAMNED. TABLE.Everything about this table is geared towards putting the match into the ref's hands instead of forcing two guys to keep pulling. Rules are only the answer when no good answer is left. SOLVE THE PROBLEM, DON'T REGULATE IT AFTER THE FACT. Awesome answer John. One change that I have introduced to congress is to modify the elbow pads to incorporate a 1/2 in high and wide lip around the elbow pad. We will vote on this at next years congress to be effective in 2014. The new pads are being built by Igor and I worked with him on the prototype (close to what I wanted) that was showcased in congress. I received wide spread enthusiasm on the new elbow pads. |
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Post by John Wilson on Sept 21, 2012 9:52:18 GMT -5
HALLELUJA!
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Post by "VENGEANCE" -David Rivera- on Sept 21, 2012 10:26:19 GMT -5
Words from John Wilson The Wise.
A.K.A John "Wise" Wilson.
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.. they are intentionally pulling in a manner that has them leaving the grip, they removed their palm from the palm of their opponent, (like your avatar picture appears to be). 
. If both pullers go that way then OK, but when only one person moves to leave the palm, then who is intentionally initiating the loss of contact of the grip and causing the potential slip? 
