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Post by Margie Ciaccio on Mar 3, 2014 17:01:50 GMT -5
Mike, you are absolutely correct in your statement. There are some of us who have been armwrestling for years and have dished out thousands of dollars to attend world-class armwrestling events, because we are just like the athletes in the Olympics - we want to be known as the best in the world. And, a few people, like you said, haven't been in this sport very long, and I don't know their commitment to the sport, or at least it hasn't been proven yet.
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Post by David Owens on Mar 3, 2014 17:03:23 GMT -5
This thread is stupid, and full of hypocrisy. Every single promoter out there has taken entry fees and not given out money and now its not ok for the UAL! What is wrong with you people, its up front and honest. He is not waiting until you get to the event to tell you so...if you dont like it dont show up its pretty simple.
I would have expected more ....this is sad.
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Post by Max Moore on Mar 3, 2014 17:04:43 GMT -5
This thread is stupid, and full of hypocrisy. Every single promoter out there has taken entry fees and not given out money and now its not ok for the UAL! What is wrong with you people, its up front and honest. He is not waiting until you get to the event to tell you so...if you dont like it dont show up its pretty simple. I would have expected more ....this is sad. my point exactly. wtf is the big deal?
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Post by John Wilson on Mar 3, 2014 17:06:15 GMT -5
the cliff notes: (to Max)
Of course we are all sportsman. There is no other reason to be in this sport. Aside from a handful of people, the rest of us could never hope to break even on what it costs us to be in it. I don't see anyone afraid to lose anything, because quite frankly nobody has anything to lose.
The Brzenk quote was a reference to my main point, which was not entry fees. Even if I had ten gazillion dollars of sponsor money, I'd still charge entry fees to keep the field full of serious pullers. Anyhoo, that's a tangent and I have enough trouble keeping brief.
So, the point:
"Support" as in, "everyone needs to support this organization / event"
What they really mean is that everyone needs to spend their money to make this organization / event successful. It is an intentional implication of guilt that if an organization or event is not successful, it is the fault of the competitors for not "supporting" it.
Now, insert the John Brzenk quote.
An organization will live or die on its perceived value. If people don't support it then the organization failed to get that support. It's not about entry fees, it's about the same 500 armwrestlers in North America that "support" every single thing that comes down the line. You'll go broke "doing your part" to support this sport.
Brzenk was right. The sport will cease to be a hobby when organizations can balance their P&L without the competitor ever being a part of the accounting process.
It was not about entry fees. But you knew that, didn't you?
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Post by Eric Wolfe on Mar 3, 2014 17:09:32 GMT -5
Good read. .. but Robert your wrong about one thing for sure... Dancing Girls are the sshhiit!.. and having a few other girls holding a chalk bucket is spot on... we need to learn from each other here..
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Post by Max Moore on Mar 3, 2014 18:45:53 GMT -5
the cliff notes: (to Max) Of course we are all sportsman. There is no other reason to be in this sport. Aside from a handful of people, the rest of us could never hope to break even on what it costs us to be in it. I don't see anyone afraid to lose anything, because quite frankly nobody has anything to lose. The Brzenk quote was a reference to my main point, which was not entry fees. Even if I had ten gazillion dollars of sponsor money, I'd still charge entry fees to keep the field full of serious pullers. Anyhoo, that's a tangent and I have enough trouble keeping brief. So, the point: "Support" as in, "everyone needs to support this organization / event" What they really mean is that everyone needs to spend their money to make this organization / event successful. It is an intentional implication of guilt that if an organization or event is not successful, it is the fault of the competitors for not "supporting" it. Now, insert the John Brzenk quote. An organization will live or die on its perceived value. If people don't support it then the organization failed to get that support. It's not about entry fees, it's about the same 500 armwrestlers in North America that "support" every single thing that comes down the line. You'll go broke "doing your part" to support this sport. Brzenk was right. The sport will cease to be a hobby when organizations can balance their P&L without the competitor ever being a part of the accounting process. It was not about entry fees. But you knew that, didn't you? john your writing definitions as we go...lol....the definition of support varies and in this instance it does not mean "give us money" there are a lot of ways to support an organization...but you already know this. I guess we differ in terms of definition..... when I say support I don't mean giving money...hell I don't even mean going to the events...I just mean support the effort by spreading good words and not trying to defame the organization and the people in it every chance you get. the last time I checked the UAL isn't sending out leters asking for donations like the red cross....hes offering a "product" and those who like the product can "purchase" it...theres no panhandling goin on here. and I agree: there is nothing to lose at all! so why all the fear and flack for the UAL? what are all of you guys so afraid of? the UAL is a great thing ....don't be scared....lol now as far as going "broke supporting it"...that's a bogus claim because earmwrestlers have been going broke supprting people who put on events that don't even pay a dime for decades....so whats the big deal now with the UAL? they are offering more for your tournament dollar than any other event has in the history of armwrestling as far as I can tell....and they are getting slammed for it by insinuating that somehow they are causing armwrestlers to "go broke" and are "scamming" the armwrestlers....and a whole host of other idiotic suggestions when in reality the UAL is the first real and tangible effort in solidifying an armwrestling league where the pullers get paid real money and aren't "going broke". and since Brzenk's opinion seems to carry so much weight....John is a UAL signed athlete...so id say he would agree with alot of what im saying. bottom line: it wont matter one dam bit if the UAL doesn't pay unsigned athletes that place in their tournaments. at the end of the day one will either stand in the way of progress or argue that we should keep riding the same broke down old horse that we have for the last couple decades....previous ideas for making AW into something more than an oddity have failed.....so why all the resistance?
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Post by Tom Stanley on Mar 3, 2014 20:10:15 GMT -5
I don't get this crap, you people should just be lucky someone has the balls to put on any tourney, lots of endless work in any Organization, and for you whiners that want want want and bitch non-stop you all can start your own organization I'm sure king Obama will fund it....
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Post by John Wilson on Mar 4, 2014 0:02:37 GMT -5
Max, I'm not sure if you're talking to me or the voices in your head LOL. You keep inferring specific meanings to general statements I made concerning the sport as a whole.
As far as going broke in the sport- you need to attend more than a handful of events in two neighboring states before you call it bogus. There was a time I spent ten grand a year going to tournaments. And those were last century dollars. It's not hard at all to do and a trip to worlds adds a few more grand to that annual figure.
I'm the most thankful guy you'll ever meet for the promoters who give us events to attend. The coin has two sides though. There are no events unless pullers pay to attend. That part of it- appreciation for the puller- seems to get lost lately. And the entry fee is not the cost. Piss on the entry fee. That's the loose change that falls in the crack of your car seat compared to airfare, hotels, rental cars, and food.
Anybody reading this who hears the words "costs to attend an event" and equates it to "entry fee" is a rookie puller who probably ought to talk less and listen more.
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Post by David Owens on Mar 4, 2014 1:42:44 GMT -5
Max, I'm not sure if you're talking to me or the voices in your head LOL. You keep inferring specific meanings to general statements I made concerning the sport as a whole. As far as going broke in the sport- you need to attend more than a handful of events in two neighboring states before you call it bogus. There was a time I spent ten grand a year going to tournaments. And those were last century dollars. It's not hard at all to do and a trip to worlds adds a few more grand to that annual figure. I'm the most thankful guy you'll ever meet for the promoters who give us events to attend. The coin has two sides though. There are no events unless pullers pay to attend. That part of it- appreciation for the puller- seems to get lost lately. And the entry fee is not the cost. Piss on the entry fee. That's the loose change that falls in the crack of your car seat compared to airfare, hotels, rental cars, and food. Anybody reading this who hears the words "costs to attend an event" and equates it to "entry fee" is a rookie puller who probably ought to talk less and listen more. I think your on the wrong side of this argument John, people are already spending the money you talk about, the only difference is with UAL you can actually make some of that back. I dont see why this is so mind boggling or disrespectful to the pullers? I have been to many many events where I got there and had to shell out 10 or 15 bucks more for the entry into the venue, fairs, muscle shows, and most of the time I didn't know about that cost ahead of time. This is as plain as the nose on your face, show up or dont it really doesn't matter, short term Robert is losing money either way.....difference is he is losing money paying HIS athletes not someone else's or free agents, he doesn't stand to gain anything from paying out to anyone who feels like showing up so why do it? Pretty simple stuff We talk about on the backs of the armwrestlers but this guy is losing FAR more money than he is gainingpaying armwrestlers and gets spat on for it!
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Post by John Wilson on Mar 4, 2014 9:27:31 GMT -5
People can agree or disagree. That's life. And disagreeing with 10% still means you are agreeing with the other 90%. That's called overall agreement.
UAL is a business that is free to do as they see fit. There is no "side". UAL's side is the only one that matters because they live or die on those decisions.
Mine or anyone else's opinion is irrelevant. I'm not sure why so many people think everything must operate on consensus.
This is a message board, not the UAL fan page. Expect dissent. Feel free to disregard that which you don't like.
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Post by John Wilson on Mar 4, 2014 9:34:32 GMT -5
And please go re-read what I posted in my first post.
You are reiterating everything I said. You are having an argument with what you THINK I said because you stopped reading after the first sentence you disagreed with.
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Post by John Wilson on Mar 4, 2014 9:40:35 GMT -5
unless you want to be under UAL contract, which is fine if the contract sounds like a good deal to you. If UAL wants to be a closed organization that is also perfectly reasonable and probably necessary. I'd have more respect for Bill and Robert if it were presented that way but it's their organization and the UAL will live or die accordingly. ... If your goal is to go to UAL, turn some heads and get a contract, well here's your opportunity. If you don't plan to lock yourself in to the UAL only, then what on earth are you going to UAL for? This is a win-win for the UAL athletes because now there won't be any dark horses in the competition. You pretty much know who you are up against and the class sizes will fairly static. Here you go David. I cut it down to focus on the pertinent parts. Which part of that are you arguing against?
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Post by Max Moore on Mar 4, 2014 10:13:48 GMT -5
Max, I'm not sure if you're talking to me or the voices in your head LOL. You keep inferring specific meanings to general statements I made concerning the sport as a whole. As far as going broke in the sport- you need to attend more than a handful of events in two neighboring states before you call it bogus. There was a time I spent ten grand a year going to tournaments. And those were last century dollars. It's not hard at all to do and a trip to worlds adds a few more grand to that annual figure. I'm the most thankful guy you'll ever meet for the promoters who give us events to attend. The coin has two sides though. There are no events unless pullers pay to attend. That part of it- appreciation for the puller- seems to get lost lately. And the entry fee is not the cost. Piss on the entry fee. That's the loose change that falls in the crack of your car seat compared to airfare, hotels, rental cars, and food. Anybody reading this who hears the words "costs to attend an event" and equates it to "entry fee" is a rookie puller who probably ought to talk less and listen more. John I happen to love the voices in my head, ive given them names and everything. lol but I actually think its you who is kinda missing what I am saying....and ive said it several times. all you are doing is proving my point: Armwrestlers have been "going broke" for decades going to tournaments that pay out ZERO dollars. so why is everyone so upset now that the UAL wont pay un contracted athletes? that is what this entire discussion is about. that's the name of the thread and that's what we are talking about. your being a little bit of a hypocrite john. if now you are saying that you wont (or don't like the idea of) spend money to go to a UAL event because they wont pay you (only because you refuse to sign with them) and you have to "go broke" doing it...then why the sudden change of heart since you have been doing it for decades and spent "over 10,000 dollars" doing it in one year to attend events that also didnt pay??? and your thankful to the other promoters that put on events that "poached" your entry fee and gave back nothing...but you scorn the UAL for doing the same (only to uncontracted athletes) ? you asked in your original post " If you don't plan to lock yourself in to the UAL only, then what on earth are you going to UAL for?".....well john....why on earth would you go to any event that doesn't pay??? what makes the UAL events the exception? why did you spend "10,000dollars" in one year going to all those events that didn't earn you squat???
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Post by John Wilson on Mar 4, 2014 10:46:30 GMT -5
Ah. We are having a misunderstanding because we are talking about different things. I should have quoted the person I was responding to I guess, because what is missing is context. so why is everyone so upset now that the UAL wont pay un contracted athletes? that is what this entire discussion is about. No, it's not. The whole point of the thread is that UAL wants to collect entry fees to a pay-out class, but doesn't want to pay out if the winner is uncontracted. This all started with me responding to the guy who posted in response to Denise. He said that non-contract pullers who win prize money are basically stealing the UAL's prize money. Robert later clarified that non-contract pullers pay a different entry fee and will know up front that they aren't qualified to win the prize. I may disagree with that, but it's perfectly legit if both parties agree to the terms. Armwrestlers have been "going broke" for decades going to tournaments that pay out ZERO dollars. Totally agree. Not sure what the issue is here. That's the point I was making about athletes being appreciated BY the promotor the same way people expect gratitude from the athletes towards the promotor. your being a little bit of a hypocrite john. Entirely plausible. if now you are saying that you wont (or don't like the idea of) spend money to go to a UAL event because they wont pay you (only because you refuse to sign with them) and you have to "go broke" doing it...then why the sudden change of heart since you have been doing it for decades and spent "over 10,000 dollars" doing it in one year to attend events that also didnt pay??? and your thankful to the other promoters that put on events that "poached" your entry fee and gave back nothing...but you scorn the UAL for doing the same (only to uncontracted athletes) ? I have no idea where you got this. This is a mish-mash of many other topics, none of which are specific to UAL. This is pure miscommunication, probably because I was speaking too broadly about 25 years in the sport. My bad. The "poached entry fee" I already spoke to. That is a reponse to the post directly above my response to it. I thought that was pretty self-explanatory which is why I didn't quote the OP. you asked in your original post " If you don't plan to lock yourself in to the UAL only, then what on earth are you going to UAL for?".....well john....why on earth would you go to any event that doesn't pay??? what makes the UAL events the exception? Ah. Because the UAL is unique in that they are moving toward a closed organization. (To which I said that I actually agree with, and think is probably necessary.) The UAL is cutting non-contract pullers out of the money, for reasons I already said I agree with. The UAL needs to control it's environment if they are ever going to focus on athletes as a product. Game of Arms did exactly the same thing. You can't have two hundred random pullers. The audience can't follow that. So, I stand by what I said. The UAL wants to be a closed organization. They are only (at least primarily) interested in having a stable of established athletes. The ONLY reason UAL should let non-contracted pullers enter events is to keep the pipeline open to find new talent. So, AS A NON-CONTRACTED ATHLETE, the ONLY reason to go to a UAL event is to get contracted. Robert said the same thing, and he isn't goint to pay you if you win. He wants you to realize you are an outsider. You're welcome to come have a good time, though. If you're any good, maybe he'll sign you. So, since Robert and I are saying the same thing I don't get what the beef is. There isn't one.
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Post by Guy Windover on Mar 4, 2014 13:40:47 GMT -5
Good stuff John, I agree with all. I just wanna pull. Dont really care about contracts as I am old and feeble. I loved the UAL event we went to and I love the look of the WAL. Its all good!
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