|
Post by Pete & Tim on Feb 22, 2015 18:47:28 GMT -5
Tim B again. You know what WHO GiVES. A SHTT about testing. DON'T MATTER MOST WILL NEVER. BE cought. Lance Armsyrong NEVER POPed Positive, but yet admited to mass use!!!
|
|
|
Post by Derek Wirth on Feb 22, 2015 23:42:46 GMT -5
I just consider all the "mainstream" ball sports. Ped's are a major factor as far as the pro level is concerned. Athletes have lost multimillion dollar contracts over them, because the fans wholly consider them cheating. This bridge has to be crossed eventually, for our sport's, as well as our athlete's credibility. Myself, I say let everyone get as jacked as possible. I wanna see a bunch of animals tearing each other's arms OFF!
|
|
|
Post by John Milne on Feb 23, 2015 10:05:54 GMT -5
Tim B again. You know what WHO GiVES. A SHTT about testing. DON'T MATTER MOST WILL NEVER. BE cought. Lance Armsyrong NEVER POPed Positive, but yet admited to mass use!!! I'll give you 3 examples of people on my team who currently compete at WAL. Devon, Jeff Slater and Eric Roussin care. I'd be willing to bet they'd have more money in their pockets if the testing system really worked too. I get the "who gives a crap" attitude, it's pretty much the same one I have. However, I can also see the other side and I train with guys who it directly effects. I did state earlier that people will get through, one only has to look at WAF results and cross reference Zloty results to draw an opinion on that. One could also look at former WAF "greats" who've been popped too. I'm not banging the drum on testing Timmy, I just wanted to start the conversation on profiling. I could be wrong but it seems that women will not be tested and if that's true then we're already profiling.
|
|
|
Post by Simon Berriochoa on Feb 23, 2015 13:45:27 GMT -5
I started an Antidoping company called COMPADA to provide comprehensive tailored testing at a reasonable price to any sport or event that wants to test. At this point very few seem interested in testing. Why spend more, risk litigation, and potentially reduce attendance when athletes that use avoid your tested event.
The most common mistake is the idea that this is a moral issue defined by legal and illegal. The common concept is that getting your gear smuggled in from Mexico, China, or Russia is wrong, but obtaining it as a prescription in the US or buying one of the many legal over the counter comparable substances online or at a nutritional store is ok. This is sport attempting to remove all chemically created performance from its competition, an impossible task with fat too many variables to cover even for WADA.
Other than some genetic anomalies or the use of some yet to be exposed masking agent. Athletes cannot use PED's, quit for 2 weeks and test clean. A common cycle involves 4 weeks of use, 4 weeks of PCT post cycle therapy with substances that are also tested for then 8 weeks off of everything. At this point you are maybe going to pass a test that starts with looking for elevated TEST levels in the urine. However advancements in testing now look for traces of synthetic substances in your urine first those substances have been found in the urine up to a year after use of some PED's. This is why athletes that were passing previously are failing now.
Out of competition testing is still random not to mention horrifically expensive and intrusive. The WAF is looking at this process as part if it's Sport Accord association it would have to be random and very targeted toward only the top competitors due to its costs. The controls of it only really work in countries that have nationalized the sport meaning their government is involved in controlling armwrestling.
It is great if you can afford to test everyone, (WAF tests cost about 250 Euros each I can do the the same thing for less money this is more about targeting what we NEED to test for rather than WADA.) If you cannot test everyone or even the entire top three, I believe it has to be completely random otherwise you are making assumptions about who is using based upon zero evidence to that effect. As it is we only look at the top 3 so there is a good indication of the top performers. The WAF uses a process that is more geared toward select individuals, that we will not use in the USAF for exactly that reason, it is not completely random.
The reality that the best supported athletes that passed again and again in armwrestling getting caught is evidence that there is value in the process, if you are someone that believes the sport should be free of PED's. No everyone will not get caught every time.
There are many banned substances that can be used after weigh ins, so you cannot ask everyone or anyone to give the sample in advance of the event and then not do it after, as well testing is not on the spot so the results take too much time and the event would run anyway before you ever knew someone was positive.
There are genetic anomalies that allow some athletes to pass tests who are using under the old testing method. If you think about the old process it was looking for higher than stated TEST levels or out of balance TEST/EPI ratios, that process had the fatal flaw of allowing people to cycle off down to more normal TEST levels, for testing, if your TEST was in range they would not proceed with any further analysis. The new testing method looks for synthetic metabolites in your urine first, as an indication of use, then the rest of the test is completed, this is much more difficult to beat as you have to be clean of the substance completely, and there are rules against diluted samples based upon the normal PH balance that is required.
Basic numbers, Imagine your TEST is 600 and you use PED's to get it to 1200, doing so will significantly reduce your natural TEST production, once you go off the cycle for enough time your TEST could be 600 again, but in a combination of natural TEST and remnant synthetic TEST. In the old version of testing you would pass, because once they saw your test was within limits they go no further, however in the new version of testing, it start by looking for synthetic substances, so even if you are within the limits you will still fail the screen.
|
|
|
Post by Pete & Tim on Feb 23, 2015 16:51:01 GMT -5
Tim B again. Well john there is your answer why they are testing at nats, one of the board members has a company!! I can think of a mass of pullers who. Won't pull uni nats becouse they smoke weed, that will be a shame. Derik you took the words right out of my mouth,let's just get out and BANG!!!!
|
|
|
Post by Simon Berriochoa on Feb 23, 2015 17:37:46 GMT -5
I have been trying to get testing at Nats for 6 years I just started the company this past year mostly because I am convinced that everyone wants to complain about doping but nobody wants to test. So far that has been proven to be the case as nobody inquires about testing their event.
Testing is being done because the athletes have been asking for it. The doping at Nats is all being done at cost direct with lab and not attributed to my company.
|
|
|
Post by Pete & Tim on Feb 23, 2015 22:37:04 GMT -5
Tim B again Most of the people that want it are the ones that use it for excuse. I lost cuz soand so is juiceing! For me it just makes me train harder and figure new ways to pull if they think its big time use here, go overseas try that and they have been testing a lot longer than USA. I just get tierd of hereing about it! Train hard lift hard and overcome!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on Feb 24, 2015 9:08:21 GMT -5
How about the real elephant.... GH ? This has GIANT effects on our sport and far as I hear it is undetectable
|
|
Las Botha
Silver Member
South Africa
Posts: 298
|
Post by Las Botha on Feb 24, 2015 12:05:22 GMT -5
...should testing be streamlined to focus on the people who are "most likely" to be using PED's? To those who have been in the game long enough - most PED users are fairly easy to spot. I believe it has to be completely random otherwise you are making assumptions about who is using based upon zero evidence to that effect. Hi guys, a major premise of the OP seems to be focusing on certain giveaway, tell-tale indications/symptoms/signs of Performance Enhancing Drug users that can be "spotted". Would it be possible if the OP or any of you who've been long enough in the game could please identify and list a few of these fairly easy to spot signs of PED users?
|
|
|
Post by John Milne on Feb 24, 2015 12:09:37 GMT -5
I have to leave shortly Mr. Botha but I'd be happy to get back to it later on.
In the meantime you could google it. I'm positive there are several sites that would give you good answers right away about the things to look for physically. There are some non physical things to look for as well, differences in character that appear in some when they're close to a big match or whatever.
|
|
Las Botha
Silver Member
South Africa
Posts: 298
|
Post by Las Botha on Feb 24, 2015 12:13:22 GMT -5
How about the real elephant.... GH ? This has GIANT effects on our sport and far as I hear it is undetectable Hi Rob, Cyplenkov after the '13 Fibo (I believe) was quoted as saying that he hasn't used HGH since 2010 as he believes it holds no benefit for armwrestling. Even if he truly believes that, what are the chances then that he hasn't continued using what he believes actually does work. As good a confession as any, and none would be brave enough to venture a guess against it preventing stupidity. Whatever the case, seem some and they are pretty pleased with the results in a few short years. Apparently the higher cost and longer term use dissuades many would-be users. What would your suggestion be anyway?
|
|
Las Botha
Silver Member
South Africa
Posts: 298
|
Post by Las Botha on Feb 24, 2015 12:15:34 GMT -5
I have to leave shortly Mr. Botha but I'd be happy to get back to it later on. In the meantime you could google it. I'm positive there are several sites that would give you good answers right away about the things to look for physically. There are some non physical things to look for as well, differences in character that appear in some when they're close to a big match or whatever. No, I'll wait for your reply later, Mr Milne, as one who's been in THIS game long enough. Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by Simon Berriochoa on Feb 24, 2015 12:44:53 GMT -5
Tim as odd as it sounds I agree with you. Odd because I was on the WAF Antidoping committee when it was founded I pushed for Antidoping in the USAF and I started COMPADA, however as an athlete I don't care what people use. I think most people love being able to point to it as an excuse why they are not as successful. The WAF I got involved in because they had a real witch hunt mentality I wanted to ensure that the athletes had rights and were treated properly. Armwrestling generally suffers greatly from very defined and strict rules that are not applied uniformly or consistently I was and am very concerned about this continual failure in the sport in all facets of armwrestling including Antidoping management. The athletes keep saying they want testing the WAF is forcing testing so we are going to try and do an appropriate job of it for those we serve as board members.
Rob you are right, the half life of GH is so short that detecting it has only been claimed to be done by blood testing and that testing seems inconsistent and virtually impossible to time to catch someone using in sport.
Historically steroid use has been marked by quick increases in bloated body mass, water retention, large swings up and down in body weight in 4 month cycles, body acne, gyno, hair loss, the over development of small difficult to develop minor muscles, erratic mood swings, and impotence. Those things can happen however they are very outdated ideas about PED use from an era that used the substances to excess with very little science or knowledge about how to use these rather under refined substances. Today's substances are more targeted, higher quality and the science of how to use them properly is very well understood. Look no further than the athletes that have tested positive in any sport, the majority are not fat bloated acne covered hairless guys.
|
|
|
Post by Simon Berriochoa on Feb 24, 2015 13:06:26 GMT -5
Mood swings is an interesting one. Roid Rage as it is commonly known. It is thought that the use of PED's causes individuals to be more aggressive and easily angered. Though it is true that the use of some substances can produce what they commonly call "alpha male euphoria". However "roid rage" is actually caused when an individual is coming off of testosterone use and is not properly restarting the bodies natural TEST production. Testosterone is the male regulating hormone so having very little to none in your body is going to cause significant irritability and instability, hence the long standing saying of grumpy old men.
Young athletes that suddenly find themselves without this regulating hormone due to steroid use are often dramatically effected by this where as older users have a much lower effect.
|
|
|
Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on Feb 24, 2015 14:36:19 GMT -5
Les, I'm not a know it all in this topic, but I know GH does miraculous things .
I saw video of a much smaller less freaky Denis as an adult years back... I doubt GH didn't have any effect... He is the GH poster boy if you were to talk to a specialist in this field.
|
|