elbow fouls suck

[Frank "The PREZ" Hirst]

I'm gonna open up a can of worms here, but I feel there was an extreme amount of elbow fouls called this past weekend. To me, there is nothing worse to see but for a match to end in elbow fouls. I know other spectators feel the same way.
I am one that thinks if there is no advantage gained let it go. Why stop a good match?

[Jeramie Towle]

i can see where you are coming from Frank, but if thats the way it goes then it needs to be fair across the board.

[Bob Brown]

Good luck trying to get a full understanding of what gains advantage and what does not. And then trying to get everyone to agree on it. And then trying to get it in writeing.

I agree that if no advantage is gained, let it go. BUT like I said good luck with this one.

[Frank "The PREZ" Hirst]

Jmo Bob.

[Steve Pettis]

why dont we just not have refs and everyone can call the matches from the crowd or while they are pulling.
Bob,
In one post you want to eliminate the gray area but then in this one you are for adding one if you can word it right. I don't understand what pullers want. If it comes off the pad you may not gain advantage but you are stopping your competitor from gain his advantage he would have gained if the elbow would not have came up. That in turns gave you the advantage of not being moved toward the pin pad.

[Bob Brown]

Well Steve,

This is a pefect example of what I said on the other thread. Mis-understandings and/or not explaining properly.

I agree with you. The rule of keep your elbow down period is the way to go. It eliminates all possible grey area. The gain advantage or not thing is way way way to hard to call at an instant and therefore should probably not happen.

What I was trying to say is that there actually are times that no advantage is gained and therefore let the match go. For example. Me and you are in a hook in the center of the table. Its an even match not really going to either side. NOW both of us lift are elbows up slightly off the pad at the same time and then they came right back down. Neither of us moved from the center. Why not let it go?

NOW where I do think refs discretion is crutial is knowing the difference between intentional foul and just a foul.

[Chris Coletti]

"What I was trying to say is that there actually are times that no advantage is gained and therefore let the match go. For example. Me and you are in a hook in the center of the table. Its an even match not really going to either side. NOW both of us lift are elbows up slightly off the pad at the same time and then they came right back down. Neither of us moved from the center. Why not let it go?"

What if the first guy elbow fouled in defense of a great hit and then the second guy did to counter the first guys foul? All this could happen in a milli second. The guy who initiated the cheating should be fouled.
I am 100% positive that any time someones elbow comes off the pad it is an advantage either offensively of defensively. It should always be called.

"NOW where I do think refs discretion is crutial is knowing the difference between intentional foul and just a foul."

Talk about opening a can of worms. In the parallel pin thread the argument was a ref should not have an imaginary line to prevent Grey area calls. We can't continue to complain for the simple sake of complaining. Either we want set in stone rules to help the ref make the correct call or we don't.

[Bob Brown]

Chris,

Good point on the Milli second in an elbow foul. I would agree to elbow down period. As it is now in the WAF.

The Intentional vs Non goes back to the guys who in the middle of the match realize they are about to lose and throw there elbow off the pad or let go of the peg to gain a restart. They IMO should lose. I had a match at the AAA where the Ref called Intentional elbow foul to my oppenent and gave me the win. It was the first foul. I agree with this at he did it Intentionally.

[Toddzilla]

All elbow fouls should be called, and unless the refs have developed ESP or some other X-Files ability, they should not be expected to determine what is intentional or not. I'm bringing Johnny Cochran to argue my case if they ever implement the "intentional" or "advantage gained" rule.

Any changes to the sport should be in the direction of making a refs job easier, not more controversial.

How about that asinine" if your elbow goes off the back of the pad, the OTHER guy gets a foul " That rule sucks.

The least ambiguous and most fair rule would be:
"YOUR elbow, YOUR pad, YOUR responsibility PERIOD"

The real controversy has been occurring since ARMTV (everybody say Thanks Gary). Now video shows the itsy bitsy fouls that the refs missed. Things were much better before Gary ("I'm as good as Quentin Tarantino") Roberts.

Now, those little (1/4 inch) hoppy elbow lifts that occur when pullers change their vector, or those tiny fouls when the puller moves laterally across the pad, those shouldn't stop the match. But you can't call some fouls and not others, inconsistency breeds distrust, contempt and grumpiness.

What is needed is a way to mask the tiny, insignificant fouls that don't alter a match and highlight the blatant fouls (1 inch or higher) off the pad, or completely off the side of the pad.

A small thin fence built around the elbow pad, made from a double thickness of vinyl, that extends a 1/2 to 3/4 inch above the pad would do the trick. This would block the horizontal view from the camera, refs, and audience. Therefore the only fouls visible are the gross, 1 inch or higher ones. These fouls are always telegraphed anyways by large upward movements of the shoulder, hand and forearm. The little hoppy fouls are invisible to everybody, and don't get called. The big fouls are seen by everyone and the camera (everybody say Thanks Gary) and get called, every time.

If a puller goes off the side of the pad, the whole side of the fence would lay down, highlighting the foul for all to see.

[Pete & Tim]

I think Todd is on to something here.

[Toddzilla]

peter said:

I think Todd is on to something here.

Who are you?
Why are you using Pete's account?

[guy]

Its a natural reaction to want to get higher when feeling pressure from your opponent. Especially on a start where your trying to get the biggest advantage.

If you want to get higher, get plastic piece inserted in your elbow to give you a longer arm and more leverage, or better yet see your local dealer

[Mark Evans]

I dislike the advantage (to subjective) gained rule. Lift your elbow it should be a foul. I like the idea of the 1-4 inch pad around the sides, just like the old round cups that were used in the olden days.
However then you are back to having faith in the refs using their judgment when you broke the plan, hence parallel pins suck thread.
Kind of like a dog chasing its tail.

[Frank "The PREZ" Hirst]

Todd I like your idea. I agree the 1" lifts need to be called no matter what. Its the tiny lifts that should not be called.

[Shane Mclaughlin]

Would there be some way to develop sensors on the pads that would beep if pressure or contact is removed. As for the parallel pins same thing have a laser light streaming from the inner side of each pad which beeps when hit.

Granted the down ref would need to activate the table which could complicate things. But, super matches where allot CA$H is involved (No one could blame the refs for a bad elbow or parallel call).

Just a thought, I know it is a little extreme but, we all know that the technology is out there! This way you could eliminate a subjective call. As I have said before a ref "as it call what he/she seen not what you think occurred"..