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Post by Carlos Beltran on Apr 6, 2005 18:44:46 GMT -5
True Bill... ...very True
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 6, 2005 21:39:36 GMT -5
They need to give their lives to Christ. Or they wont get to the next life but eternal death.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 7, 2005 10:45:49 GMT -5
eternal death is seperation from God
there are only two places your soul goes to when it dies
either heaven or hell.
if you are not covered in the blood of christ you will not be accepted in heaven and the only place left is hell
no eternal sleep, but eternal torture and constant guilt and condemnation. constantly being reminded of your sins. the flame never extinguishes and the worm never dies
hell was not created for man. It was created for satan and his angels to be destroyed for eternity. But because of mans sin. we now die. we were never intended to die but to live on earth for ever.
sin corrupted our bodies now we die. sin tainted our souls so we cant go to heaven. Christ died to make that way for us to go to heaven, throuh faith in his blood alone can you recieve salvation and enter the kingdom of heaven
eternal death and torment is being seperated from God our creator and life sustainer
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Post by Bill Maenza on Apr 7, 2005 18:26:57 GMT -5
Steven,
Unless of course you are Catholic - then you get Purgatory. I know that Ryan does not believe it and will argue until his fingertips are blue, but it does exist.
I do agree that "eternal death" is seperation from God. Hell, as I understand it, is knowing that you will never be with God and there is no hope...or being lost at sea with Ryan (j/k!).
We will probably have to start a new thread soon! Actually, I am not going to debate with you Ryan... :-)
Bill
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 7, 2005 22:42:27 GMT -5
I do agree that "eternal death" is seperation from God. Hell, as I understand it, is knowing that you will never be with God and there is no hope...or being lost at sea with Ryan (j/k!). I gotta give to you that was pretty funny ;D Purgatory is a paganistic concept and is not taught in the bible The teaching of purgatory is blasphemous. The teaching of purgatory says that you can pay the church indulgences for your loved ones to be released from purgatory. THIS MAKES VOID THE NEED FOR CHRIST DEATH. thus it is blasphemy.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 7, 2005 22:48:24 GMT -5
BUT.......to get back on subject.......and i know this will upset and i apologize before hand Here is an interesting fact that you cant argue. The word "pope" is latin for "father" Matthew 23:9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. so in the latin bible which the catholic church uses. to translate just the one word father would read like this Matthew 23:9. And call no man your pope upon the earth: for one is your Pope, which is in heaven. This is not JUST scripture to argue the "scripture alone" argument. This is Jesus words. Jesus, i hope you would agree, has more authority than both Peter and Paul Here are some of the names of the pope: "Bishop of Rome" (dont have a problem with that) "Successor of Peter" (not true) "Chief Pastor" (of the Roman Catholic Church alone, no problem with that) "Viccar of Christ" I have a serious problem with this one: [Middle English, from Old French vicaire, from Latin vicrius, vicarious, a substitute, from vicis, genitive of *vix, change. See weik-2 in Indo-European Roots.] in other words "The substitute of Christ" this is blasphemy He is not the substitute of Christ. If he wants to be the Chief Pastor thats fine. But he is not Christ nor is he the substitute. I have a personal relationship with Christ that there is no man between he and I. "Patriarch of the western Church" (i dont really have a problem with this other than western should be changed to Roman Catholic) "The Holy Father" (again this is blasphemy, there is nothing holy about ANY man except that he be in Christ. He is not supposed to be called Father according to Matt 23:9. Especially "holy Father" ------Blasphemy) "King of Kings" ( this is a title given to Christ "King of Kings and Lord of Lords". However it is used in several different instances with different people throughout the bible) Revelation 17 14. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
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Post by Bill Maenza on Apr 8, 2005 7:53:00 GMT -5
Ryan, I will go over this quickly as I don't have nearly as much time on my hands as you do. First, one of the big differences of opinion and presentation is this: I explain a Catholic belief and state it as such (regarding Purgatory) where as you get on state that Catholic beliefs are blasphemous and paganistic.
As for call no man father: 1) Acts 7:2 Who said: Ye men, brethren, and fathers, hear. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charan. 2) Heb 12:7-9 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live?
As for the Pope Mt 23:9 And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven Simple as this, Neither be ye called masters. The meaning is that our Father in heaven is incomparably more to be regarded, than any father upon earth: and no master to be followed, who would lead us away from Christ. But this does not hinder but that we are by the law of God to have a due respect both for our parents and spiritual fathers, (1 Cor. 4. 23: 15,) and for our masters and teachers. This clears that up without me needing to give you 50 clips.
Purgatory: Rev 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb 1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. - These are the fires of Purgatory.
2 Sam 12"13-14 (not pasted here) Though David was forgiven, he was still punished.
Mt 5:26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.
Ryan - we can debate this forever. However, do it through PM or email please. If we continue this out here...I am sure it will turn ugly as our past "conversations" have.
Bill
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 8, 2005 13:37:31 GMT -5
. As for call no man father: 1) Acts 7:2 Who said: Ye men, brethren, and fathers, hear. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charan. 2) Heb 12:7-9 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? I agree that when Jesus said call no man father he wasnt saying that we cant call our biological father father. Such as Abraham is the biological father. And through Christ the gentiles were grafted into the family which comes from Abraham. The word father most likley was referering to you caling anyone a "Holy Father". I apologize i didnt make that clearer i was trying to stick to the facts and not an interpretation. These scriptures are totally out of context and completly misinterpreted. The only way your name is written in the lambs book of life is when you acept christ as savior. As for David, we all suffer consequences of sin ON EARTH as long as we live here. But God forgives through faith in Christ who accomplished the entire work of atonement. If he didnt why did he have to die? Purgatory comes from greek mythology, it probably comes from other sources as well. It is NOT taught in the bible. As for emails and PMS the subject started here in public. Id rather it end here.
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Post by Bill Maenza on Apr 8, 2005 13:47:08 GMT -5
See Ryan...that is why taking your interpretation of the bible is useless. You can't even follow simple and clear instructions (Previous postRyan - we can debate this forever. However, do it through PM or email please. If we continue this out here...I am sure it will turn ugly as our past "conversations" have. Yet I/we are to assume that you can interpret the bible.
You like to grandstand. Many people have told (emailed) me the same thing about you, and they are right. It is useless to discuss anything with you as you know it all and have never been wrong in your life. I knew that no matter what I posted or said, you would have a reason as to why the Catholic faith is wrong and that you are right.
I won't give you your forum here. You are only looking to stand on a soapbox and preach. I think I read somewhere a quote, what was it now...oh yeah, "And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye?"
Think about it.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 8, 2005 15:00:06 GMT -5
Think about what? What have you given me to think about? Why cant i interpret the bible? its clear and open to be interpreted. But then again Just like the mormons and jehovahs witnesses you cant interpret the bible unless you are a bishop of the catholic church, right? gee what a comparison. I wonder if there is a connection John 16: 12. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you If there is a log or plank in my eye please point it out so that i can deal with it accordingly. I do not reject rebuke. AS LONG AS IT IS SCRIPTURAL. I can be wrong, BUT i appreciate the complement You use the term soapbox? Is that a bad thing that a man wants to use every avenue to preach the gospel? And to do everything in his power to do it?
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Post by Bill Maenza on Apr 8, 2005 16:15:26 GMT -5
RT - Think about what? What have you given me to think about? WM - Obviously nothing as you have a closed mind - too bad your mouth and fingers can't follow suit.
RT - Why cant i interpret the bible? its clear and open to be interpreted. But then again Just like the mormons and jehovahs witnesses you cant interpret the bible unless you are a bishop of the catholic church, right? gee what a comparison. I wonder if there is a connection WM - See, you really are just a 22 year old punk with an attitude. Keep attacking Ryan, I am sure people will continue to follow your example. In one months time you have insulted: Catholics, Jehovahs, Moromns, Muslims, Mason's, and just about every group that you mention in your posts. Way to live the Gospel!
RT - If there is a log or plank in my eye please point it out so that i can deal with it accordingly. I do not reject rebuke. WM - The log is that you are a hipocrite. You sit in judgement of everyone. I think that job has already been taken. Who knows, maybe He will need an advisor.
RT - AS LONG AS IT IS SCRIPTURAL. WM - "I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions. . . ."
RT - You use the term soapbox? Is that a bad thing that a man wants to use every avenue to preach the gospel? And to do everything in his power to do it? WM - You just don't get it though. People should not be using the soapbox to condem another but to forgive and lead by example, not by pointing and trying to put others down.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 8, 2005 16:43:15 GMT -5
Im not condemning anyone. Im not judging anyone. We could argue back and forth on who the close minded one is. If opening the doors to false doctrine and paganism is being "open minded" id rather not. FOR THE RECORD Its been a while since i offended the muslims well more than just a month Its sad to say that the muslims like me more than the other "christian cults" you mentioned. If you who claim to "have more truth" than this little man will ever have. You need to wake up and stop affiliating satanism with christianity (Jesus dont like that). As i have provided adequate information behind my statements. Hypothetically speaking: If you knew that you knew that your friends were ignorantly involved in satanism would you say nothing, for the sake of not offending them?..........Shame on you. Ask anyone who knows me personally i would hope they would say im the last person to have an "attitude"
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Post by Bill Maenza on Apr 8, 2005 16:46:02 GMT -5
RT - You need to wake up and stop affiliating satanism with christianity WM - Oh, I forgot, Catholics worship satan.
RT - Hypothetically speaking: If you knew that you knew that your friends were involved in satanism would you say nothing, for the sake of not offending them? WM - Make no mistake Ryan, we are not friends, now or ever. I choose my friends much more carefully.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 8, 2005 16:47:33 GMT -5
I never said anything about Catholics worshiping satan. NEVER
You obviously missed the point or you simply dont care when people are decieved by satan.
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Post by Bill Maenza on Apr 8, 2005 17:05:16 GMT -5
RT - Its sad to say that the muslims like me more than the other "christian cults" you mentioned. You obviously missed the point or you simply dont care when people are decieved by satan. WM - My mistake if I misunderstood this statement. Yes, I do care...very much.
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