europeans

[Gary Roberts]

The video should be arriving to ARM TV via mail in a few days....

[simon]

Based upon the way it went down there really was no reason a person that placed and should have been tested or should have had to draw could not have chosen to just take their award and head back to the hotel, they signed nothing that stipulates their compliance with the drug testing or any of the sanctions stemming from the testing or failure to test. Was an EAF official going to tackle the athlete and force them to pee in a cup? Maybe no one will test dirty and it will not become an issue, maybe the threat of it was enough to make those that were using stay home or get off, it will be interesting to find out the results and see how a person that has failed the test will respond to the information provided to them prior to the test, this will also depend greatly upon what they test positive for. Sometime in our future someone will test positive and then we will see the conspiracy discussions as well as concerns around how the testing was performed.

Did they simply just make an announcement before the event that they will be testing at this event, was anyone shocked to find out there would be testing or did anyone claim they did not know? In my mind it is easy for someone not very intimate with the intent, to confuse taking a drug test for steroids as being the intention rather taking a WADA doping test, they are vastly different. I am curious if the EAF is going to stick to the WADA standard or if an athlete had nothing more than just too much caffeine in their system will they let that slide?

I have to agree that testing the same athlete two separate times is not a productive use of the few tests that are available. I further agree that if you draw a test on day 1 and you are to compete on day 2 then you should not be tested until day two, after the event is complete, if you do not show up to at least test on day two you are DQ’d.

You are very right Malin there are dozens of possible ways to try and cheat this test or the process. One of the most popular loopholes when I was in college was the inconclusive test, any test that is inconclusive was said to be a pass, at certain times of the year, it is pretty easy to make a test inconclusive, I will have to go back and see how that is addressed formally, but given a 2 week lag time between the test and results what are they going to do with an inconclusive test, fly to the athletes home country and retest him? Where there is a will to cheat people will find a way.

The thing I do not like about limiting the testing to 1st place for an example, is that the athlete could control his ability to get tested by choosing to lose in the finals, now me personally I compete to win, I would not bother to go and compete if I was going to have to intentionally lose to ensure I did not get tested, but some others may be ok with taking an untested second.

I am thrilled that we have made steps in right direction but I still think there is work to do, particularly if we are going to do nothing more than tell the athletes that "we are going to test WADA, so go look up there policies and procedures", if we are going to do nothing more then we really need to make sure we are following those procedures to the T.

Thank you Malin for your answers.

[Chris Coletti]

Great job Engin! Congratulations!!!!

Did Ivan Portella pull the 57 kg class?

[Malin Kleinsmith]

Simon!

That is true about the fact that IF they only tested the number one it could be that the person that "could" be number gave it away to the 2nd one.

About coffein it is RIGHT NOW not forbidden, not from this year. But they are thinking of forbidden it again if you come over some ml (don´t know exactly how much coffein). Just so you know. I looked it up before I went to the competition and also asked the Doping-comittee about it.

AND I don´t know if the "president" of team Sweden had to sign a paper that the Swedish team agreed to take doping tests. Maybe Engin knows!?

Malin

[simon]

Correct caffeine is on the 2005 monitor list and is expected to go to the banned list in the near future, it is an easy one to use as an example because everyone knows what it is.

[Malin Kleinsmith]

Simon!
What´s the monitor list?

Engin!
Yeah, we where on that meeting and also voted for doping-tests. But we did that also in the Swedish federation, but still we ALL had to sign a paper that we agreed to get doping tested when we entered the Swedish nationals. But maybe it was because we didn´t have the same procedure as we did at the Europeans. At the Swedish nationals we didn´t know WHO would get tested.

M.

[simon]

Both of you thank you for the information.

So Engin you did sign a waiver/agreement to the testing but the first time you saw anything in writing was once you had already competed and were selected for testing, I am not saying that this may not be the right time to sign a form but why did the EAF not make the terms of the testing available in advance prior to the event? What if there was something in the waiver you were ask to sign that you did not agree with, such as, a stipulation that the EAF constitutional allowance for hearings against suspensions does not apply to suspensions for failed drug testing in competition, the conclusions and the subsequent sanctions against an athlete for failing an in competition drug test are final.

Obviously that was not the case but would all athletes put in the position of finding this out when it was too late be willing to be labeled dirty with no recourse or opportunity to clear their name?

More realistically as an example if a US puller has a naturally high testosterone rate, beyond WADA standards, of course he will not know this because here in the US we are not being tested like Turkey and Sweden are, so he goes to Japan, he fails the test, he takes another test??? (how would they know he failed while he was still in Japan if it takes them 2 weeks to get the results back). In this example he has not used anything banned but now he is suspended by the WAF, so he petitions for a hearing on the subject, what evidence can he take to the WAF to prove he just has naturally high testosterone levels, all he can do is what, get his levels tested repeatedly to establish this is natural, get his local doctor to attest that throughout his repeated WADA testing of this US puller he found no illicit substances in his system yet he found consistently excessive testosterone levels, and then the puller can use this information in his appeal to the WAF? Big question; who is going to pay for this to happen? The US National team? The US government? The WAF? I don’t think so, if anyone is going to pay for it, it will be the puller and if he cannot afford to do this then what? He goes down in history as a dirty puller?

Does anyone show up at the EAF’s or the WAF event and not having been provided the rules that will be applied on the table for the competition or how it will be ran? Does anyone show up at either event not having been provided a schedule of the events and what day they will weigh in or what the procedure and limitations are for weighing in?

So my question is simply why couldn’t the EAF have provided you advance details of the testing process, why could they have not asked you to sign an agreement to the terms of testing and its ramifications prior to the event at the very least if every athlete that was planning on attending the EAF’s could have seen the requirements before the event and as you received your badge you handed in your signed agreement then they then could not claim to be ignorant of what was required of them prior to traveling to Bulgaria. To me this sounds very simple.

[simon]

A lot of people seem to be wondering why I care or why I am so adamant about this process, because it seems pretty evident that everyone else seems ok with testing without all of the details. So let me answer these questions all at once.

I am not using anything that is illegal here in the USA, everything I take is perfectly legal over the counter supplements, I have no idea if I will pass a WADA test or not but I am not taking anything deemed illegal here in the US. Anyone that wants me to take a test for illicit or illegal steroids please just let me know how many 10’s of thousands of dollars you are willing to lose on the proposition.

I am all for drug testing at armwrestling events, no question, however I think it is important that the powers that be properly inform the armwrestlers of the details and follow through, if all they are going to claim is “we are doing WADA standards for testing” and then expect each puller to go get the WADA details on their own, understand it, follow it, as well as understand the WAF constitutional policies as it applies to this subject….then those powers that be, damn well better be able to follow WADA standards for testing to the smallest degree.

If they cannot do it to the most finite points of WADA standards due to, funds, time, resources, structure, experience or capacity then in my opinion they need to establish a policy and procedure that is in fact viable within its limitations, detail it properly in advance to the athletes and then follow through with that, an iron clad process that cannot be disputed, one that will not be the reason behind conspiracy claims or problems from people that have tested positive. I am not asking for anything more.

Short version in my opinion too many things in this sport never progress or come to fruition because they are not properly addressed and ferreted out to an appropriate conclusion, if these items are worth doing or discussing they are worth doing properly.

I sincerely hope both the EAF and WAF drug testing programs are both viable and productive.

[Malin Kleinsmith]

Hi Simon!

WE ALL KNEW THAT WE WHERE GONNA BE TESTED!!!! It was up on the meeting in South Africa, where we also decided how we should do it. That was something we all voted for and almost (I think even ALL) of the countries voted for Doping tests.

So, if you did NOT want to get doping tested then you should not go to the EC. Every "president" of each county had to tell it to the competitiors in their country, so they knew what was going on. In Sweden we have a doping-group that we could ask and get information from. I don´t know how it is in other countries. It´s very easy to just look at the WADA:S site and read about anti-doping. But I think that almost all of the countries had their opportunity to ask their president about what they could take or not.

It was nothing new and all of the competitors KNEW that there was gonna be a doping test. We even decided HOW we should do it at that meeting in South Africa, and how many tests we should have.

If a competitior has a higher level of for an example testosterone this person have to pay the B-test himself (the second test). That was also decided, I think it was also decided the same for the WAF. Then I guess it is up to the country IF they want to pay for their competitor for the B-test or if they want that person to pay it by themselfes. Nor EAF or WAF will pay the B-test.

It is also GOOD for that competitor IF he/she is clean to know that he/she have a high limit of testosterone and get it on paper so that he/she in the future could take that with him/her to the competitions where there is doping tests.

Well now I am tired and will go to sleep. But I guess we´ll talk again!!!

Take care. Malin

[simon]

Sorry Malin I missed your question:

“WADA in consultation with other Signatories and governments, shall establish a monitoring program regarding substances which are not on the prohibited list but which the WADA wishes to monitor in order to detect patterns of misuse in the sport.”

[Malin Kleinsmith]

Simon!

Thank you!

Sleep tight! Why do I have so many blue stars under my name??? Weird!

Malin

[jamesretarides]

Yeah, so do Harold Owens, Matt Girdner and John Ruggiero. I think it has to do with winning a national championship. Oh well, I'll have to go out and claim mine in August.

[simon]

I won my national championship years ago but I have nothing next to my name. Hell I have finished top two in the country every year since 2001, still no respect. ;D

[simon]

I guess a lot of this has to do with the serious difference in basic structure between the US and the other countries, we have no government agency to work with on this subject, and in perspective the scope of how many total armwrestlers there are in this country probably outweighs almost every other country quite significantly, except maybe Russia and their program and partnership with their government is quite advanced compared to ours.

Asking your president what you should or should not take is not something I would do. Every large athletic group I have seen that does drug testing has a point of contact for the entire group to specifically review and advise its athletes on which supplements to use or not use. At the very least I found that the Australian National sports group has published on its website many possible products an athlete may use by name, with direction telling its athletes what they should or should not use. If you read the WADA banned list they cannot even name everything that is banned, so how does anyone expect the armwrestler on his or her own to make sure they are not taking anything they may fail for. See this quote from the banned list, after the large list of banned Anabolic Androgenic Steroids, it says “and other substances with a similar chemical structure or similar biological effect(s)” Any biochemical engineers on this board care to tell me what items specifically that means, similar biological effects such as those that raise your testosterone… as there are many natural substances the claim to do this not on the banned list, who do you ask?

I was not in your EAF meeting so I do not know how much more detail you went into there than the WAF meeting.

Yes all of the people IN THE WAF MEETING know there will be testing in Japan, they know there will be 10 tests paid for by the WAF, they know that 50% of the tests will be given to open class 1st place finishers and 50% to open class second and third place finishers, in that meeting we discussed just a few major requirements for WADA standard testing, but other than me whining about it on this board most people here in the states only heard the rumor that there would be steroid testing at the worlds in Japan, nothing more. Only because we have discussed it on this board do they now know that all the WAF is offering for details is WADA standard, and only because Leonard posted details from the WAF constitution regarding the possible ramifications of failing the test does anyone know what could really happen if you failed and what would you do to try and clear your name. Why should it be that way, why is it so hard for the WAF to detail this policy publicly rather then just expecting the country heads to tell their grand mass of all possible competitors, “hey we are drug testing in Japan and it will be WADA standard go figure it out for yourself”.

Malin you obviously see how complicated the WADA standards are, there are many documents on the subject on the WADA site including one called Athlete Guide. During the WAF meeting in SA we only decided the above mentioned basic criteria nothing more. According to WADA standards for in competition testing the athlete must have full disclosure of all details of the testing, (I am not yet sure if that means right before the test, right before they compete or in advance of the competition, I need to do more searching) so if you did not know that you would be pulling a slip of paper out of a bowl for the selection criteria, then they cannot claim they followed WADA standards, and if they are not complying to WADA standards then they cannot just go tell people to go look up WADA for details on the testing.

Most of the people I have spoken to still think dope testing for armwrestling means they will be testing for illegal steroids, something this important should just not be left to simply vague generalizations about only a few points of concern and a reference to WADA standard for the banned list or the process which really many not get followed to the letter anyway.

Considering the athlete’s test will not come back for 2 weeks how could they find out he failed the test in order to administer a B sample? What is the process? Call him up at home and say hey you failed, we are going to DQ you, if you want to fight it go ahead down to your local WADA accredited lab and get a new test, have the results sent to us and we will review them?

You are right it would be great if the competitor could already know he had a concern and could document it in advance to the WAF prior to the testing but again here in the states we are not remotely enabled to do this, we would simply have to find our own accredited lab and pay to be tested to establish this condition, how many times do you have to be tested over what period of time under what circumstances and at what cost to the athlete to prove a baseline condition?

I guess I am not very trusting and I expect people that I am working with in some regard to clearly detail their intentions to me prior to expecting me to go along, it was this attribute of myself that lead me to question all I was being told about the Olympic level inclusion so I must say sometimes it does pay to be a cynic.

[Malin Kleinsmith]

Simon!

I do agree in some points of what you have been written. But you look it from a different veiw then I do. I look at all the positive things about it, you on the negative things about it. But I DO AGREE. This should and could work better then it does. I am just happy that we now HAVE the doping tests. I know that we have a lot to work on to make it better. But just see it as a "try"-time, and hope that we learn from our mistakes. That´s how I see it...in everything you could do something better and you SHOULD learn by your mistakes in everything in life. But to have doping tests are better then not having them at all. And I do know that you agree with this.

I was also on the WAF meeting in South Africa. And it will not only be 10 tests, ´cause the president of Japan will pay for another 10 (!?) tests, so it will be exactly as it was in Bulgaria 20 tests.

And if the people from the States didn´t know that there WILL be doping-tests in Japan, then I think it´s because your federation have not given out the information about it. The team Sweden knows that there will be tests just ´cause I was on the meeting for the Team Sweden, and I HAD to tell everybody what we decided on that meeting or give the information to our federation that sent out a e-mail to everybody about it.

And if they in the States doesn´t know and YOU represented USA on the meeting, maybe it´s on your shoulders that they should get the information???

About the list from WADA about doping, that list changes all the time. So if the WAF would send out what you could not take...in a few months there will be a different list with other things that you can´t take or that you now CAN take. I also think that it SHOULD be on the competitiors interest to know what that person eats, and that it is not doping. Me myself looked up every medicin that I needed to take (head-ache pills, allergy-pills also cream that I put on my arm against pain and so on), and also about coffee before I got to the EC just so I was SURE that I did not take anything that was forbidden.
I would not have forgiven myself if I just hadn´t checked that up. It´s much you could lose by not doing that.

About the test and how they will do it, there can also be a problem that they say exactly HOW, when and where they will do the tests. The people that are taking doping will see if there is any loop-holes. The earlier it get´s out to the armwrestlers the easier it will be to find these loop-holes. But at the same time off course they should give out the most important information a long time before the competition.

About you taking things that IS leagle in USA doesn´t mean that it is leagle in the WADA. For your own sake check it up. There are many things that I also could buy here in the stores that is leagle....but not if you look at the WADA list. It´s that list that we should look at not what is leagle in each country.

But as I said. I do agree with most of the things that you are saying. But I also think that sometimes you have to check somethings up on your own. Here is some questions that I as a competitor also would like to know IF I was going to the Worlds in Japan:

* How will they test the competitors?

* What happens if you get tested positive? For how long are you gonna be "banned" from the armwrestling?

* How will the controll be in other countries for that person, how can you be sure that that person doesn´t enter a competition somewhere else? Or CAN that person enter a competition somewhere else? Where is that person forbidden to enter the competitions?

* What if a competitor is tested positive and then on the B-test you could see that he/she isn´t guilty of have taken steorids. How will we proceed? Should the B-test
only be tested by the WADA? Or can you as a armwrestler choose another anti-doping organisation?
How do you do a B-test?

* What is forbidden to take (the list of doping from WADA).

* What happens if a competitor wins the World and he/she get tested, then when the results comes to WAF and they see that this person was tested positive, what do you do with the medal? Does this person have to give HIS/HER medal to the one who placed 2:nd? How will this work the easiest way? Also with the 3:rd place taker that comes at 2nd place and the 4th place taker that comes on the 3:rd place...what about the medals?

Some of these questions might not be THAT important, but still, maybe something to discuss.

This is a great discussion, I hope I don´t piss you off Simon. It´s all just a discussion and I don´t mean any harm by it. But I think that you know that, don´t you.
Well....time to work!!! Ha, ha.

See you here soon again.

Malin