europeans

[Steve Kirlew]

How come i don't have the extra stars...im a National champion???

[Steve Kirlew]

I take it back...Wahooooo!!! The perks of being a National champion! ;D Haha!

[simon]

No Malin I am thrilled that some people at least are willing to discuss this, it is important so thank you for responding, I really hope I do not piss you off either that is not my intention.

I really had not thought about the fact that I was there filling in and any subsequent responsibilities, but that is a good point Malin maybe I unknowingly took on more than just voting for the US when I agreed to go. I have to wonder exactly what information would I tell everyone, they are dope testing in Japan, how the % of tests will be applied, possibly how many tests will be given, against only the open classes, using WADA standards for testing/processing and if you fail you will be subject to X WAF suspension policy with Y recourse for clearing yourself, I do not know anymore than that and neither does anyone else as evident by the fact I keep asking questions and no one can answer how the issue will be addressed.

Japan got approval to do additional testing but it is unclear how many they will do, as it was not established, I hope they can find a way to do 100 more tests.

People in the states know there will be dope testing it was made public, realistically we have a lot more pullers than Sweden does and over a far larger area. I am sure there will be an additional announcement at our Nationals but again here in the states we really do not address things with so little detailed information, we are not accustomed to simply saying hey this sounds like a good idea ok I will follow along without knowing exactly what the process is, but alas we may have no choice but to go with what we think we know will happen from the available information at the WADA site and do the best we can.

WADA standards do not end with simply a WADA test and a WADA accredited lab, there are required procedures, policies, protocol, informational requirements and disclosures that also must be followed according to WADA standards, if they are not then we are not doing WADA standard testing, which is ok, but again you cannot give the armwrestling public no direction other than “WADA standard” expect them to go to the WADA site get and interpret the information themselves, get themselves tested to ensure they are compliant, understand the ramifications of the WAF constitution on this subject, then have the federation not follow the WADA standard for policies, process and informational disclosure. It does not matter how much anyone disagrees with my concern you cannot argue with my logic on this, if you say WADA and nothing more you have to do WADA complete to the letter.

WADA the world authority on dope testing details the requirement for full disclosure for in competition testing and they go to a great deal of effort to detail it, so I cannot understand how anyone would believe that if you detail the process you will undermine the value of the testing, I am sure WADA did not develop this requirement without some experience in the value of it.

Certainly there should be no allowances for the US, everything should be fair and equitable across the board, thus the reason this concerns me, I can foresee a great deal of drama and problems when the first person tests dirty then they subsequently decide to attack the testing process in their own defense because it was not if fact done to WADA standards, (I mean the protocol, disclosure etc). If the process is detailed properly weather it is WADA standard or not, no one can complain about the process because they knew what it was in advance and they agreed to it. This is the crux of my concern. You are right Engin everything I am worried about was already thought about by WADA now it is up to us to learn from their experience and follow what they recommend we should be doing including detailed disclosure.

Engin the only way you can provide solutions is if you first find and address the problems.

Obviously most people are not as concerned about this as I am so, I guess we all just wait and see how it turns out I really hope it goes very smoothly.

[simon]

On this subject did anyone see the HBO Real Sports report on steroid use/dangerous side effects that is currently airing?

[Charlie Minell]

Klimenko stopped due to injury. He killed everybody he met right handed.

[Malin Kleinsmith]

Simon!

Off course you don´t piss me off. This is interesting. We are just giving each other and all the rest OUR oppinion of this.

But I don´t have that much more to say about this right now. I just think that one should not take something they don´t know what it is. Also check up your medicins on the WADA list, also if you take any other things (protein, creatin and so on) check that up on the list. IF it´s not there and you are still unsure, maybe you could ask the Doping comittee about it.

For me it is as simple as that!

Also BEFORE you get tested you DO sign a paper that it is ok and so on, like Engin said. We also did it at the Swedish nationals. I also think that you could get a copy of a paper like that if you write to WADA then you will know.

I think that if a person is worried, there is answers to get out there. But sometimes you have to work a little for it by yourself. Maybe YOU could find out the answers by getting in contact with the WADA who knows all this and then you can share that information with others?

By the way...when is your nationals? Haven´t that all ready been?

Take care now my friend!!

Malin

[Willie Reagan]

Mailin, our Nationals will be coming up in the middle of August. And as far as I know, there is not going to be any testing. Maybe someday!!

[simon]

I am personally very aware of what I am taking, there is one item that I am not taking now but I have in the past that is a natural testosterone booster, its components are not on the banned list but logical reason dictates that it may fall into the category of "other substances with similar biological effects", not to mention if it really works it could put my testosterone above the approved level. I have zero concerns about me passing the test, I would simply quit taking anything at all rather than risk failing the test. Subsequently this entire conversation has nothing to do with me personally failing the test, what I have tried to convey within my concerns are in regard to someone else that will fail the test then make a mockery of the testing program all because the WAF did not follow WADA to the letter when they administered the test, despite the fact they publicly claimed they would be doing WADA standard testing.

Further to this what I am saying is simply this, if the WAF proclaims they are going to do WADA standard testing and they do not follow all of the WADA requirements to the letter and someone fails the test, it would seemingly be very easy for the person that failed the test to legally demand the WAF overturn their findings and sanctions against him because he can show how the WAF did not follow WADA standard protocol (for disclosure) as they claimed they would, regardless of whether or not he was in fact guilty of using a banned substance.

(I am not saying the WAF will not do WADA exactly I am saying if they do not......we still have quite some time between now and the worlds for them to disclose)

So Malin what if when you went to sign that paper just before you tested, after you competed and you found there was a stipulation in the testing waiver you were signing that you did not agree with, what would you do? Do you see my point there... is it fair for you to travel, compete then find out once you are past the point of no return that you do not agree with the terms?

Our Nationals is in August.



I went out and contacted the only WADA accredited lab in the US, I am working with them to devise a plan if possible to allow US armwrestlers to be administered and pay for their own WADA doping test in advance of the World Championships, hopefully if this works out US athletes with concerns will be able to get tested on their own.

No guarantees this will come to fruition, the person I spoke to at the lab, found the entire situation quite odd, in his experience the large world governing organization that controls a sport or the US government organization (if they exist) that the sport falls under typically sets up this manner of testing program, he is working with his boss to see what can be done at our low level.

Thanks again,
Take care
Simon

[Steve Surber]

All this talk about banned subtances testosterone boosters steroids what ever.I have something thats stronger safer then any of this stuff talk about on this thread.The Lifewave patches the recovery time from using the patches three times a week is Phenomenal.Go to armtv and research it your self and try the patches for one month .You will see a big diffrents in strength and endarance after your frist use.Because nothing enters the body the patches will never be banned. Steve

[Steve Kirlew]

I'll definately see what i can do Engin!!! That would be great!
This is on the wrong thread but it's about the match with Craig Sanders and Engin Turzi!

[simon]

That is the thing about democratic governments Engin they can be criticized at any time by anyone with rights under said government.

You are right the document is/was made by the EAF presumably, they certainly are not infallible. Did the country heads even have a chance to review this document prior to it being used? I am not saying that the EAF does not have the right to put out whatever they want under the EAF constitution maybe the EAF constitution allows them to, but Engin what good would it do to criticize or have concerns about the document if you never get to see it until you are already required to either sign it or take a suspension for failing to test?

Now that you and some others have seen it you can go to next years EAF’s and make comments/proposals for changes on it, but that does the athletes little good that had to agree to it at the 2005 event.

I have not seen the document so I have no idea if there is anything I would find concerning about it, but again for the sake of this discussion if there was an item of concern in the document what would you have done at the moment you first read it? Sign it and agree to something that you find inappropriate or take a suspension for failing to test?

If people had seen the document in advance they could have made a decision not to attend or not to compete if they did not like the terms of it, you cannot make that choice if you do not know exactly what is expected of you to agree with.

Going there knowing you are going to get dope tested is one thing, but going there and only finding out after you have competed what the terms are and what you have to agree to is entirely different. It is like going to grocery store shopping the prices, selecting your items accordingly, going to the clerk, getting all of your groceries scanned and bagged and only then you find out there is a $50 surcharge for them to scan and bag your groceries, and a $100 surcharge if they have to put them back… I mean you knew you were going to pay for your selections but you would not have gone to that store at all if you would have known how much more it was going to cost you.

Engin there is no real reason to focus on this item in particular, because I don’t know if there is anything wrong with the document, it is just an example of the disclosure process that is required by WADA standards and the reason why WADA has dictated this requirement.

[simon]

What rules Engin, where are the rules where are the procedures where is the process, the protocol? These items ARE REQUIRED BY WADA TO BE DISCLOSED TO THE COMPETITORS, I am not sure how much more simplistic it can be, if anyone is creating confusion it is the governing federations by telling us WADA then not following it.

If you want to continue discussing this with any substance then answer the questions if you have the answers, otherwise all you are telling me is you really don't care what the groups do, you will go along, and that is OK, that is your prerogative, but you nor anyone else can make that decision for everyone else. If you or anyone else wants to wait until after they have traveled and competed then be faced with either agreeing to the terms of the testing or facing a suspension for failing to test before they know what they are getting themselves into, be my guest, it is not something I would recommend.

WADA rules require disclosure, if they do not disclose then they are breaking the rules and there is nothing wrong with calling them on it, again you have to discover and put a spotlight on the problems before you can solve them. The WAF may follow WADA exactly, then this will all be mute, but if they do not then they have failed to do what they have told the armwrestlers they would, and they have failed to follow the WADA rules they claimed to be using. I hope the WAF does follow WADA to the letter then none of this will be an issue.

I am not sure if no one in the US is typing here on this because they agree with me but don’t want to be wrongly labeled as against testing, (which I am not) or they disagree with me but they do not want to argue with me about it, or they just don’t want to read my long posts, regardless it is really no matter unless there is something tangible to discuss I am done with this thread.

I will do what I always do, despite the wishes of those that prefer just not to rock the boat, with sayings like “forget the politics can’t we just armwrestle”, I will continue to push on people to do what is right for the sport and the competitors and I will try and find as yet maybe undiscovered ways to alleviate or solve the issues that are continually hindering the growth of this sport.

When I get a conclusion from the only US accredited WADA lab on my proposal to allow US athletes to take their own tests I will post it on here.

Best regards to all of my fellow pullers
Simon

[leonard]

I personally agree with you Simon, the procedures must be given out ahead of the event. Does WADA list how much in advance the procedures are to be given?

[simon]

I have asked the question of WADA, along with a request for more details on what disclosure really means, the website has so much information on it, that it took me many searches just to get what little I think I know.

I hope they respond soon, again the intent here is to help the sport do the right thing and not fail in its appropriate attempts to instill drug testing into the sport.

Thanks

[simon]

I will just send you a PM Engin because it may be easier for me to make this response shorter, again if anyone wants to see an answer to a specific question Engin has proposed please let me know.