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Post by enginterzi on Aug 19, 2010 7:45:09 GMT -5
I would add Cleve Dean circa 1983 and John Brzenk Spring 2006 to the list of super-heavies who were possibly the best ever. John for sure is in that list,the reason that i did not mention his name was because he is already mentioned as the best middle weight ever. ok let me go into a detailed opinion; Lupkes of late 80s vs Voevoda of 2004 i remember Alexy's attemt to beat Matt Girdner by going side way which was ended in hook but caused an elbow foul for Matt.then when i think of the hand & wrist genetic of Lupkes i kind of doubt if Alexy could get out Richard's hand or not.and what would happen if he could not? probably Richard would win. i would call it 50-50 Lupkes of late 80s vs Gary of mid 90s i can not know the answer but i have a feeling that Richard would win. Voevoda of 2004 vs Gary of mid 90s again GOD knows the answer but i believe that if Gary would go to outside move then i would bet on Voevoda.if Gary would hook Alexy then it would depend on where the match stops.but i would bet on Alexy. so i guess my favorite superheavyweight ever either is Richard Lupkes or Alexy Voevoda,but John knows better and GOD knows the best. |
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Post by Fabio Nimis on Aug 19, 2010 8:00:32 GMT -5
I agree Engin, maybe in 2001 Karaev was at his prime but he had no good opponents to prove it... probably in 1999 Waf Karaev was a little tired from matches with Vakhtang in +110 class (where he beat Vakhtang in a convincing way but with very long setups) when he lost against Kokoev in the Overall class... Please Engin, tell me something about Karaev-Vakhtang matches et Eac 2000 in Turkey, I have never found videos or photos on internet about that tournament, even not the results, I found results only of the other Europeans 2000 in Poland. The only picture is the one with Niyazi Kurt and Tsoriev, that you shared Engin... Eric, I surely agree about John of spring 2006 maybe being the strongest armwrestlers of all times, but he is already mentioned as Best Ever and Best Middle weight on Tomasz's blog, so it would be a little boring to see him even in the best heavyweight section...   About Cleve Dean even in the early '80, I doubt IMO that he could have beaten Lupkes Goodridge and Voevoda at their prime, maybe Karaev... |
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Post by Eric Roussin on Aug 19, 2010 8:12:56 GMT -5
I think Gary was stronger in 1995 and 1996 than he was in 1994. How much stronger, I don't know, but in 1994 Cleve beat him in the Yukon Jack Finals. I would think that Cleve was not in his best shape, which I think was about 10 years earlier. The fact that Cleve took a break from the sport for about 7 years in the late '80s and early '90s, and then came back and did so well against Gary in 1994, makes me believe he was potentially the strongest ever when in his prime.
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Post by Fabio Nimis on Aug 19, 2010 8:21:49 GMT -5
I think Gary was stronger in 1995 and 1996 than he was in 1994. How much stronger, I don't know, but in 1994 Cleve beat him in the Yukon Jack Finals. I would think that Cleve was not in his best shape, which I think was about 10 years earlier. The fact that Cleve took a break from the sport for about 7 years in the late '80s and early '90s, and then came back and did so well against Gary in 1994, makes me believe he was potentially the strongest ever when in his prime. But hasn't this happened after that Gary had already pulled 2 hard matches against John?? at 1995 edition gary seemed to have no problems beating Cleve. I think that when gary lost to Cleve in 1994 final he was too tired from matches with John, but still was able to win a match in the final! I saw a video of the early '80 where Cleve Dean lost against Virgil Arciero I think and another guy who I don't know, they forced him in a hook and beat him. With all due respect to old Legends of the past, I strongly doubt that those pullers were as strong as Lupkes, Goodridge and Voevoda, as in every other sport it has been a progress during the years... |
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 19, 2010 8:29:38 GMT -5
I agree Engin, maybe in 2001 Karaev was at his prime but he had no good opponents to prove it... he beat Dean and Frantisek Zivny (who beat Dave Randall year before in 2000 WAF).but again these guys were not the best superheavyweights then. probably in 1999 Waf Karaev was a little tired from matches with Vakhtang in +110 class (where he beat Vakhtang in a convincing way but with very long setups) when he lost against Kokoev in the Overall class... true but i heard Kokoev was better than him at those days.Kokoev was beating Erekle and Devid Tshelidze easily at those years. Please Engin, tell me something about Karaev-Vakhtang matches et Eac 2000 in Turkey, I have never found videos or photos on internet about that tournament, even not the results, I found results only of the other Europeans 2000 in Poland. The only picture is the one with Niyazi Kurt and Tsoriev, that you shared Engin... Vakhtang beat Alan without problems with right arm.the picture of Kurt vs Tsoriev was in 2001 EAC in Lithuania. |
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 19, 2010 8:35:25 GMT -5
I think Gary was stronger in 1995 and 1996 than he was in 1994. How much stronger, I don't know, but in 1994 Cleve beat him in the Yukon Jack Finals. I would think that Cleve was not in his best shape, which I think was about 10 years earlier. The fact that Cleve took a break from the sport for about 7 years in the late '80s and early '90s, and then came back and did so well against Gary in 1994, makes me believe he was potentially the strongest ever when in his prime. Gary and John had a killer match (about 25 seconds of none stop hitting) before Cleve beat Gary; but Gary still managed to beat Cleve once on that day.following year Gary beat Cleve quickly,John was in the middle weight. |
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Post by Eric Roussin on Aug 19, 2010 8:35:42 GMT -5
I admit I haven't watched the video from the 1994 Yukon Jack in a long time, so I don't recall all of the details. In any event, Cleve competed in close to 100 tournaments between 1978 and 1986. He had a handful of losses during this time. Virgil had more wins over him than anyone else (I think three), but Cleve also had at least a dozen wins over Virgil.
I agree that it makes sense that performance levels in all sports should evolve over time, with the evolution of training methods, supplements, etc. I therefore understand why it can be difficult to consider Cleve as being the best of all time based on the years during which he was in top form.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 19, 2010 8:42:45 GMT -5
Eric, these matches are probably from early 80s.who are the guys that beat Cleve at 1.20s and at 2.10s ?;
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Post by Fabio Nimis on Aug 19, 2010 8:44:11 GMT -5
No disrespect Engin, I meant that in 2001 Karaev had not good enough opponents to prove to be the strongest ever, no disrespect to Cleve Dean and Frantisek Zivny, legendary armwrestlers.
I don't know what to think about Karaev vs Vakhtang, at 1999 Wac seemed that Alan was become too strong, then I didn't know that Vakhtang re-beat Alan another time at Eac 2000.. Probably it's true as you said Engin that they had equal level in the end.
So there's nothing about 2000 eac Engin? No pictures and no results? I have searched them for many years, If I'm not wrong it has been the first important competition for Semerenko and Voevoda...
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 19, 2010 8:51:08 GMT -5
Semerenko pulled and lost to Niyazi Kurt in 1999 EAC.i dont have the results of 2000 eac but i think Alexy Voevoda took 3. place behind Rasul Tcohaev and Alexander Fugarov.
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Post by Fabio Nimis on Aug 19, 2010 8:59:54 GMT -5
Semerenko pulled and lost to Niyazi Kurt in 1999 EAC.i dont have the results of 2000 eac but i think Alexy Voevoda took 3. place behind Rasul Tcohaev and Alexander Fugarov. Thanks for info Engin! |
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Post by Eric Roussin on Aug 19, 2010 9:00:27 GMT -5
Unfortunately the computer I'm using right now has security settings that prevent me from viewing video. I will take a look at them tonight. Is this the Caesar's Palace event from 1982, where Cleve didn't place? This was his worst tournament ever. I think one of his losses was to Ed Arnold (the guy who was in the final at the Over the Top Finals with John). In speaking with John Woolsey, apparently Cleve lost to 4 different people between 1978 and 1985, and I think Virgil was the only one with multiple wins.
Take a look at the video from the following year (1983). Cleve was back, and looked stronger than ever.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 19, 2010 9:11:24 GMT -5
did Richard and John pull Cleve between 1985-1990?
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Post by Eric Roussin on Aug 19, 2010 11:00:13 GMT -5
As far as I know, Richard has never pulled Cleve. John pulled Cleve once between 1985-1990 at an Over the Top qualifier in Houston in 1985 or 1986. They initially slipped grips, but then Cleve easily won in the straps.
Here's an interest response John provided circa 1998 in the "Ask John Brzenk" section of armwrestling.com:
Q: "If there was a meet, that was just a free for all! And all the armwrestlers came to compete, who in your opinion would the finals come down to! Just a straight free for all! And then who do you think would be the winner?"
A: "Lets say for fun everyone is in the best shape of their lives for this tournament. Some of the favorites would be Cleve Dean, Gary Goodridge, Alan Karaev, Erekle Gurcheane, Jerry Caddorette, and Richar Lupkus. In my mind they are currently half a dozen guys that would be capable of winning a super heavyweight free for all tournament. The one who would win would largely depend on the draw and his ability to stay fresh through to the final matches. Would I bet all my money on any one of these armwrestlers winning the BIG ONE? Not a chance. None of these armwreslers would win without some help from the others."
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 19, 2010 11:35:50 GMT -5
As far as I know, Richard has never pulled Cleve. John pulled Cleve once between 1985-1990 at an Over the Top qualifier in Houston in 1985 or 1986. They initially slipped grips, but then Cleve easily won in the straps. Here's an interest response John provided circa 1998 in the "Ask John Brzenk" section of armwrestling.com: Q: "If there was a meet, that was just a free for all! And all the armwrestlers came to compete, who in your opinion would the finals come down to! Just a straight free for all! And then who do you think would be the winner?" A: "Lets say for fun everyone is in the best shape of their lives for this tournament. Some of the favorites would be Cleve Dean, Gary Goodridge, Alan Karaev, Erekle Gurcheane, Jerry Caddorette, and Richar Lupkus. In my mind they are currently half a dozen guys that would be capable of winning a super heavyweight free for all tournament. The one who would win would largely depend on the draw and his ability to stay fresh through to the final matches. Would I bet all my money on any one of these armwrestlers winning the BIG ONE? Not a chance. None of these armwreslers would win without some help from the others." i should have asked the question "after John won over the top". in 1985 John still was struggling around his weight class with Buononato and Walker; i remember a old video where John was beating Cleve but dont remember the year of it. i found this quote on web (it says John at 200 pounds beat Cleve and Lupkes) but still dont know which year it was; "A mechanic for Delta Airlines, Brzenk, a 6-foot, 200 pounder, two years ago beat 6-foot-7-inch, 480-pound Cleve Dean for a national championship in a much-publicized contest at Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco. Later that year, he beat Rich Lupkes and his 18-inch forearm to win a world championship." |
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