PEOPLE WHO BELEIVE IN GOD !!!

[John Wilson]

Engin,

I can understand your confusion. But the quote is coming from the Gospel of Mark when Jesus is explaining thing to the disciples early in his ministry. At this point, Jesus had not revealed himself.

Understand that Jesus did not begin his ministry by fully disclosing the big picture. It was a long series of baby steps because even his apostles were not yet ready to hear the whole of it. A good example of this is the wedding in Cana. They had run out of wine. Jesus' mother Mary tells Jesus to do something about it. He replies to her, "No. It is not yet my time."

Mary knew who, and what, Jesus was. After all, she was told to name him Emannuel, which means "God with us." But he did not spend his childhood proclaiming this. Christ had a timetable he was working on. Each revelation came one at a time. It was not until his crucifixion that even his own apostles began to truly understand His words fully. They had been with him every day, but even they did not recognize the prophecies being fulfilled in front of their eyes.

The Apostle John makes this very clear in his opening lines of his Gospel. "In the beginning was the Word. (Jesus) And the Word was with God. And the Word WAS God." Through him all things were made.

You don't have to agree with me. But instead take Jesus at his own word.

"I and my Father are one."

"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

"He is in me, and I am in HIM." (referring to the Father)

"Father, I was with you when the world was made."

"Thomas, now who do you say I am?" Answer: "My Lord and My God."

To the Samaritan woman at the well- she says they are waiting for the Messiah. "I am He."

And the most clear statement in the whole New Testament:

To the Sanhedrin- they ask 'Who are you?" His response, "I AM."

**This may sound inconsequential to many people, but it was a tremendous revelation to Jews who clearly understood the writings of Moses. When Moses is afraid to go to the king of Egypt, he asks God who he should say sent him. God answers, "Tell them I AM sent you." To a Jewish scholar, especially a member of the Sanhedrin, there can be no more powerful an answer than "I AM."

[enginterzi]

John,

i am sure that you are not intentionally doing this but you are clearly missing the corruption of a verse in Gospel.they, the early Pope, Father, Theologians quoted a verse different than the version that you today have in your hand.

today's version is "WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD? NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE!"

and when you talk about this verse to prove that Jesus is not GOD then Christians say "no,here he meant himself as well since he also is god".

but the truth is in the letters of the early Christian Pope, Father and Theologians who quoted this verse in a different way which destroys the explanation of the Christians about this verse;

Pope st. Clement (GOD of Jesus? );

"Now, that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus is good, the Word Himself will again avouch: "For He is kind to the unthankful and the evil;" and further, when He says," Be merciful, as your Father is merciful." Still further also He plainly says, "None is good, but My Father, who is in heaven."


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Saint Irenaeus;


"And to the person who said to Him, "Good Master," He confessed that God who is truly good, saying, "Why callest thou Me good: there is One who is good, the Father in the heavens; "


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Origen;


“There is none good but one, God the Father.”





above the quoted verses clearly shows that those words of Jesus concerning the ONLY GOOD,is about GOD THE FATHER only.Pope Clement, Ireneaus and Origen HAD NO REASON TO ADD an extra word (THE FATHER) to a verse.


the origin of the verse is as follows;

"good master"

"Why callest thou Me good?: there is One who is good, the Father in the heavens; "



anyone with an average intelligence can understand that the early Church Fathers had no reason to quote this verse different the original one and it sure disturbed the creators of the trinity doctrine,enough to take away words of Jesus from the Gospel.


can anyone explain why early Christian Fathers quoted Mark 10-18 as "GOD THE FATHER" while today's version says only "GOD"? please no none sense answers such as "it does not matter" since we all know that for the Christians who believe in trinity "GOD" and "GOD THE FATHER" have differences in meanings.

[enginterzi]

Oct 28, 2010 12:57:28 GMT -5 John Wilson said:

The Apostle John makes this very clear in his opening lines of his Gospel. "In the beginning was the Word. (Jesus) And the Word was with God. And the Word WAS God." Through him all things were made.

You don't have to agree with me. But instead take Jesus at his own word.

"I and my Father are one."

"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

"He is in me, and I am in HIM." (referring to the Father)

"Father, I was with you when the world was made."

"Thomas, now who do you say I am?" Answer: "My Lord and My God."

To the Samaritan woman at the well- she says they are waiting for the Messiah. "I am He."

And the most clear statement in the whole New Testament:

To the Sanhedrin- they ask 'Who are you?" His response, "I AM."

Gospel of John ends with these words ;

" This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true."

who are "WE" ? i mean come on, some other people clearly touched his testimony that they even felt like they need to give their own guarantee that that is the Gospel of John.



here is another thing which could not have been written by John but someone who liked to exaggerate;

"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written?! i mean how could that be true?! i bet none of his disciples would write such exaggerated words.


the beginning words of Gospel of John (1-1) are very important words and somehow were not mentioned in the other Gospels. btw the correct translation of the verse is ;

In the beginning was the Word. (Jesus) And the Word was with God. And the Word WAS divine or god (with small g which is used in many places of the Bible).again,i would expect such an important verse to be part of the other gospels as well but unfortunately we do not see them anywhere else but on John's gospel.


If we look at a different verse, 2 Corinthians 4:4, we find the exact same word (ho theos) that was used in John 1:1 to describe God Almighty is now used to describe the devil, however, now the system of translation has been changed:


"the god of this world (the Devil) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not."




about being ONE with GOD i explained tens of times before but let me do it again;

John 17:20-22 "That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in
them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE".

So here if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods (the Father,Jesus and 11 disciples).so being ONE with GOD does not make anyone a god as disciples did not become gods just because they were ONE in GOD.


"1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears; (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 11:1-3)"


about the name Emanuel.. there have been other GODly names before Jesus as well;

Ezekiel (Strong God)

Elzaphan means "God is Protector"


Thomas to fall down before Jesus,does not make Jesus as god.was Saul god as well?

1 Samuel 24
7 With these words David rebuked his men and did not allow them to attack Saul. And Saul left the cave and went his way.
8 Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, "My lord the king!" When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
9 He said to Saul, "Why do you listen when men say, 'David is bent on harming you'?


also those parts of Gospel have difficulties since Jesus tells to Maria Magdelena to not to touch him (because he had not ascended to heaven yet) while Jesus tells Thomas to put his hand to his scar !? i do not want to go into those inconsistents.


Jesus himself knew that he was ordered to worship GOD;

" 'All this I will give you,' he (Satan) said (to Jesus), 'if you will bow down and worship me.' Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'




but i can tell you the words of Jesus;


JOHN 14-28

GOD has smaller and greater parts within HIMSELF?

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.


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JOHN 12-49

GOD is commanding another god or himself or what?

"For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."


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"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. (From the NIV Bible, John 4:23)"


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"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 24:36)"

Not even Jesus knows when the Hour will come! How in the World can he be the Creator of the Universe?!

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[Bob Paradis]

Oct 28, 2010 12:57:28 GMT -5 John Wilson said:

Engin,

I can understand your confusion. But the quote is coming from the Gospel of Mark when Jesus is explaining thing to the disciples early in his ministry. At this point, Jesus had not revealed himself.

Understand that Jesus did not begin his ministry by fully disclosing the big picture. It was a long series of baby steps because even his apostles were not yet ready to hear the whole of it. A good example of this is the wedding in Cana. They had run out of wine. Jesus' mother Mary tells Jesus to do something about it. He replies to her, "No. It is not yet my time."

Mary knew who, and what, Jesus was. After all, she was told to name him Emannuel, which means "God with us." But he did not spend his childhood proclaiming this. Christ had a timetable he was working on. Each revelation came one at a time. It was not until his crucifixion that even his own apostles began to truly understand His words fully. They had been with him every day, but even they did not recognize the prophecies being fulfilled in front of their eyes.

The Apostle John makes this very clear in his opening lines of his Gospel. "In the beginning was the Word. (Jesus) And the Word was with God. And the Word WAS God." Through him all things were made.

You don't have to agree with me. But instead take Jesus at his own word.

"I and my Father are one."

"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

"He is in me, and I am in HIM." (referring to the Father)

"Father, I was with you when the world was made."

"Thomas, now who do you say I am?" Answer: "My Lord and My God."

To the Samaritan woman at the well- she says they are waiting for the Messiah. "I am He."

And the most clear statement in the whole New Testament:

To the Sanhedrin- they ask 'Who are you?" His response, "I AM."

**This may sound inconsequential to many people, but it was a tremendous revelation to Jews who clearly understood the writings of Moses. When Moses is afraid to go to the king of Egypt, he asks God who he should say sent him. God answers, "Tell them I AM sent you." To a Jewish scholar, especially a member of the Sanhedrin, there can be no more powerful an answer than "I AM."

I am filled with joy that Jesus is God...I wouldn't be able to comprehend anything else. "Mercy" is our God!!!! Thanks be to God or we would all be smoked.

Engin, some of the stuff you use to refute the Gospel of John is a stretch. That is my opinion. Your opinion is different....I understand that, but Christians will never buy that stuff.

[enginterzi]

hi Bob,


if you do not buy them then maybe you would like to answer me about who were these "WE" in the gospel of John;

" This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true."

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and even in heaven Jesus calls HIM,GOD.why is that?

Revelation 3:12 (New International Version)

12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

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[Michael Wells]

There are too many inaccuracies in the NIV translation. Not a fan of it but that's just my opinion.

[enginterzi]

Oct 28, 2010 17:20:48 GMT -5 Michael Wells said:

There are too many inaccuracies in the NIV translation. Not a fan of it but that's just my opinion.

what about NIV? you mean about Mark 10-18? if so,no Michael. Mark 10-18 is changed on the Greek version,which is supposed to be original gospel even though Jesus did not preach in Greek language(all the original Hebrew Gospels were destroyed).

[enginterzi]

Oct 28, 2010 17:20:48 GMT -5 Michael Wells said:

There are too many inaccuracies in the NIV translation. Not a fan of it but that's just my opinion.

no translation of today is as the early church fathers quoted that verse;


New International Version (©1984)
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked. "Only God is truly good.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except for one-God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

King James Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.

American King James Version
And Jesus said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

American Standard Version
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, even God.

Bible in Basic English
And Jesus said to him, Why do you say I am good? no one is good but one, and that is God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.

Darby Bible Translation
But Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? no one is good but one, that is God.

English Revised Version
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, even God.

Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good, but one, that is God.

Weymouth New Testament
"Why do you call me good?" asked Jesus in reply; "there is no one truly good except One--that is, God.

World English Bible
Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except one--God.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jesus said to him, 'Why me dost thou call good? no one is good except One -- God;

[enginterzi]

these explain the importance of the edit on mark 10-18.

here are some answers and questions from the web concerning Mark 10-18 in today's version;

"WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD? NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE!"

GOD can be understood in the way of trinity which includes Jesus.

question: How do we interpret this (Mk10:18)?. I find it very confusing. Does it contradict our belief that Jesus is fully God?

answer: No it does not. Notice that He does NOT say "don't call me good" or "don't say that". Jesus is merely making a point. He is basically saying that by calling Him "good" they are acknowledging that He is God without realizing it.


if the verse stayed at its origin as the church fathers quoted in their letters then the answer above could not be given today;

Pope st. Clement;

"Now, that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus is good, the Word Himself will again avouch: "For He is kind to the unthankful and the evil;" and further, when He says," Be merciful, as your Father is merciful." Still further also He plainly says, "None is good, but My Father, who is in heaven."

but here it is written as "THE FATHER" and it can not include Jesus.


*************************************************


another one (same incident on luke as well);


question: Last night I was reading Luke and this verse got me to thinking and I can't come up with anything.
Luke 18:19 "Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."
Since Jesus is God why would He say this? Any answers out there would be greatly appreciated.



answer:He was saying that if people recognize that He is good then they should know that He is God. They should recognize that God is the source of goodness, not man. He was raising people's minds to recognize the Messiah.


another answer: At first you might think Jesus is denying he is good. What Jesus is saying is that he complements him for recognizing he (Jesus) is good. He (Jesus)is not denying he is good. He is congratulating him for recognizing him for who he really is- God in the flesh.


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so the inventers of the trinity doctrine must have seen this problem therefore erased the "FATHER" part of the verse;


Saint Irenaeus;


"And to the person who said to Him, "Good Master," He confessed that God who is truly good, saying, "Why callest thou Me good: there is One who is good, the Father in the heavens; "

[Cleve Dean]

Guys I am going to say something and I haope that maybe it will clear things and I assure you that I prayed for this answer. God and jesus are separate indentities but the think as one, they believe as one, Jesus is the only begotten son of God, ( I beleve this to mean that he is the only son conceived through a woman-a human) and the two are so close that no man can tell the two apart but Jesus gives credit of all to God for Jesus is everything God would have him be. Jesus is so pure and he is the word and he is and always was with God for he is a part of God just as your son is a part of you. Have you not seen a father and son so much alike that at the same ages they were almost identical and they sound alike and they think alike and respond alike becaus the son saw that he had a good father and he seeked to be like him and the father found so much favor in his son that he awarded the son all that he could teach him and is the same with God and Jesus just so much greater and so much more pure and complete. I know that when I was a young man working on the family farm and I was raised so much to act and think as my father did that I was over all employees and I hired and fired and directed them with my father's consent and approval without question because he knew how he raised me and that my judgement was the same as his so we were one but we were two so think of how that would be with God and Jesus they are one in every way but they are two

[Paul Walther]

Who Is God?

God consists of three persons: Father, Son, and Spirit. We cannot experience him any other way. But though we usually list him as Father, Son and Spirit, the actual experience of God is different. We first meet the Son, by means of the Spirit, and then the Father.
The Father is the source. The Father is unseen, unknown, except as he continually embodies himself (makes himself visible) in the Son. The Son is who weesee and hear and know. He is ceaselessly embodying the Father, day by day, hour by hour, moment by moment. He is perpetually revealing the Father, hitherto invisible.
The Father is logically first, but not chronologically. For the Son exists as long as the Father exists, and is coexistent with the Father. The Father acts through and in the Son. He makes himself visible only in the Son. It is in the Son that the Father becomes a part of human life, and so is born and lives and dies in human life.
The Spirit, in turn, comes from the Son. He does not embody the Son. On the contrary, God, in issuing from the Son into the Spirit becomes invisible again, The Spirit proceeds silently, endlessly, invisibly from the Son.

[enginterzi]

(St. Gregory, fourth century bishop of Nazianzus, writing to St. Jerome (Hieron. ad. Nep.):
"A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated to them."
quoted by C. F. Volney, The Ruins (Boston, 1872) p. 177)



to compare GOD with an example of the earthly father is not a right thing to do.since for a father to have a son on this earth requires also a mother.since GOD is not a male to have a sexual relationship ,the way that HE makes something is just by saying "BE" and it is.to say Jesus was with GOD from the beginning is being not able to understand GOD who has no beginning nor has an end.HE may have created Jesus at the BEGINNING of the universe and that can be called Jesus was with GOD at the beginning of te creation of this life.there are so many unfit parts in this theory since there is a verse in Gospel where GOD says;

"TODAY i have begotten you"

GOD that i believe is not a male or female but since we discuss about Christianity lets say that it happenned.still when GOD says "TODAY" is the day of Jesus' beginning.


not to mention that there are many in the Bible that are called son of GOD.but interesting thing is that while GOD through all of HIS messengers including Jesus,ordered that HIS oneness is the most important order HE never mentioned about this 3 in 1 type of godhead.it took 3 centuries for people to create such doctrine by using a LARGE imagination in verses while there is a clear order of GOD through HIS messenger;

"THE LORD (YAHWEH) OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE"


calling Jesus "god" and worshipping him IS NOT what GOD or Jesus ordered.even the "lord" that is used for Jesus is not the "LORD -YAHWEH" which is called for GOD.the lord that is used for Jesus is also used for Abraham in Peter's letter;


"like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear."

it is the same exact Greek word tha is translated as "lord" for Jesus but translated as "master" for Abraham.




Jesus was gone and Peter was preaching about Jesus who already was in heaven.the way that Peter called Jesus whom you call "god";

ACTS 2.22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.


36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."


3.6Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk."


13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.


22 For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.


26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."


4.10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.

30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."


14For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us."


55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

[enginterzi]

early Christian fathers did not believe in trinity.here again from st Clement;


But I do not think that you are ignorant that

the living Church is the body of Christ. For the

scripture saith, God made man, male and female. Now,

the male signifieth Christ, the female the Church.


**********************************************

here again st Clement describes the ONLY GOD as the one who sent Jesus;



20:5 Now to the only God, the invisible, the father

of truth, who hath sent unto us the Saviour and leader

of immortality, through whom he hath made known unto

us the truth and the heavenly life, to him be the

glory, world without end. Amen.


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here the early Father sees the relationship between GD and Jesus same as the relationship between the Disciples and Jesus;



42:1 The Apostles received for us the gospel from our Lord Jesus Christ; our Lord Jesus Christ received it from God.

42:2 Christ, therefore, was sent out from God, and the Apostles from Christ; and both these things were done in good order, according to the will of God.


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here ST Clement again separates them as GOD and as Christ;

46:6 Have we not one God and one Christ?


**************************************************
again Jesus is described as someone other than GOD who is ALONE;

let all the nations know that thou art God alone and Jesus Christ thy Son, and that we are thy people and the sheep of thy pasture.


**************************************************
again GOD is described as the ONE who "choosed" Jesus;

64:1 Finally, my God, who overlooketh all things, who is the Master of spirits and Lord of all flesh, who hath chosen our Lord Jesus Christ, and us through him to be a peculiar people, give unto every soul that is called after his glorious and holy name, faith, fear, peace, patience, long-suffering, continence, purity, sobriety, to the well-pleasing of his name, through our high priest and protector, Jesus Christ, through whom be ascribed unto him glory and greatness, strength and honour, both now and world without end. Amen.

[Michael Wells]

As far a's the inaccuracies of the "new translations" of Bibles, That one verse wasn't what I was talking about. I fully understand the translation from Greek/Hebrew all the way to English. What I'm talking about is verses missing from certain Bibles. I've got those Bibles and saw where they would, for instance, have verses 21-24 and jump to 26 or 27. Missing verses and taking key words out of original text was what I meant. The language barrier is one thing. I WISH I knew how to read Hebrew to get the original stuff, but the KJV is the beat I can get

[Robert Bishop]

i looked at a living word bible and couldnt believe how much off it was

i set the thing down after reading only a couple verses and have not read it again from that time until now

The verses i was reading was in EZ 38 IN which i was arguing with them over this scripture