PEOPLE WHO BELEIVE IN GOD !!!

[enginterzi]

Epistle of Peter to James
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Peter to James, the lord and bishop of the holy Church, under the Father of all, through Jesus Christ, wishes peace always.



Knowing, my brother, your eager desire after that which is for the advantage of us all, I beg and beseech you not to communicate to any one of the Gentiles the books of my preachings which I sent to you, nor to any one of our own tribe before trial; but if any one has been proved and found worthy, then to commit them to him, after the manner in which Moses delivered his books to the Seventy who succeeded to his chair.

Wherefore also the fruit of that caution appears even till now. For his countrymen keep the same rule of monarchy and polity everywhere, being unable in any way to think otherwise, or to be led out of the way of the much-indicating Scriptures.

For, according to the rule delivered to them, they endeavour to correct the discordances of the Scriptures, if any one, haply not knowing the traditions, is confounded at the various utterances of the prophets. Wherefore they charge no one to teach, unless he has first learned how the Scriptures must be used. And thus they have amongst them one God, one law, one hope.


In order, therefore, that the like may also happen to those among us as to these Seventy, give the books of my preachings to our brethren, with the like mystery of initiation, that they may indoctrinate those who wish to take part in teaching; for if it be not so done, our word of truth will be rent into many opinions.

And this I know, not as being a prophet, but as already seeing the beginning of this very evil. For some from among the Gentiles have rejected my legal preaching, attaching themselves to certain lawless and trifling preaching of the man who is my enemy.

And these things some have attempted while I am still alive, to transform my words by certain various interpretations, in order to the dissolution of the law; as though I also myself were of such a mind, but did not freely proclaim it, which God forbid! For such a thing were to act in opposition to the law of God which was spoken by Moses, and was borne witness to by our Lord in respect of its eternal continuance; for thus he spoke: "The heavens and the earth shall pass away, but one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law." And this He has said, that all things might come to pass.

But these men, professing, I know not how, to know my mind, undertake to explain my words, which they have heard of me, more intelligently than I who spoke them, telling their catechumens that this is my meaning, which indeed I never thought of. But if, while I am still alive, they dare thus to misrepresent me, how much more will those who shall come after me dare to do so!



Therefore, that no such thing may happen, for this end I have prayed and besought you not to communicate the books of my preaching which I have sent you to any one, whether of our own nation or of another nation, before trial; but if any one, having been tested, has been found worthy, then to hand them over to him, according to the initiation of Moses, by which he delivered his books to the Seventy who succeeded to his chair; in order that thus they may keep the faith, and everywhere deliver the rule of truth, explaining all things after our tradition; lest being themselves dragged down by ignorance, being drawn into error by conjectures after their mind, they bring others into the like pit of destruction.

Now the things that seemed good to me, I have fairly pointed out to you; and what seems good to you, do you, my lord, becomingly perform. Farewell.



1. Therefore James, having read the epistle, sent for the elders; and having read it to them, said:

"Our Peter has strictly and becomingly charged us concerning the establishing of the truth, that we should not communicate the books of his preachings, which have been sent to us, to any one at random, but to one who is good and religious, and who wishes to teach, and who is circumcised, and faithful. And these are not all to be committed to him at once; that, if he be found injudicious in the first, the others may not be entrusted to him.

"Wherefore let him be proved not less than six years. And then according to the initiation of Moses, he that is to deliver the books should bring him to a river or a fountain, which is living water, where the regeneration of the righteous takes place, and should make him, not swear -- for that is not lawful -- but to stand by the water and adjure, as we ourselves, when we were regenerated,were made to do for the sake of not sinning.

2. "And let him say: 'I take to witness heaven, earth, water, in which all things are comprehended, and in addition to all these, that, air also which pervades all things, and without which I cannot breathe, that I shall always be obedient to him who gives me the books of the preachings; and those same books which he may give me, I shall not communicate to any one in any way, either by writing them, or giving them in writing, or giving them to a writer, either myself or by another, or through any other initiation, or trick, or method, or by keeping them carelessly, or placing them before any one, or granting him permission to see them, or in any way or manner whatsoever communicating them to another; unless I shall ascertain one to be worthy, as I myself have been judged, or even more so, and that after a probation of not less than six years; but to one who is religious and good, chosen to teach, as I have received them, so I will commit them, doing these things also according to the will of my bishop.

3. "'But otherwise, though he were my son or my brother, or my friend, or otherwise in any way pertaining to me by kindred, if he be unworthy, that I will not vouchsafe the favour to him, as is not meet; and I shall neither be terrified by plot nor mollified by gifts. But if even it should ever seem to me that the books of the preachings given to me are not true, I shall not so communicate them, but shall give them back. And when I go abroad, I shall carry them with me, whatever of them I happen to possess. But if I be not minded to carry them about with me, I shall not suffer them to be in my house, but shall deposit them with my bishop, having the same faith, and setting out from the same persons as myself. But if it befall me to be sick, and in expectation of death, and if I be childless, I shall act in the same manner. But if I die having a son who is not worthy, or not yet capable, I shall act in the same manner. For I shall deposit them with my bishop, in order that if my son, when he grows up, be worthy of the trust, he may give them to him as his father's bequest, according to the terms of this engagement.

4. "'And that I shall thus do, I again call to witness heaven, earth, water, in which all things are enveloped, and in addition to all these, the all-pervading air, without which I cannot breathe, that I shall always be obedient to him who giveth me these books of the preachings, and shall observe in all things as I have engaged, or even something more. To me, therefore, keeping this covenant, there shall be a part with the holy ones; but to me doing anything contrary to what I have covenanted, may the universe be hostile to me, and the all-pervading ether, and the God who is over all, to whom none is superior, than whom none is greater. But if even I should come to the acknowledgment of another God, I now swear by him also, be he or be he not, that I shall not do otherwise. And in addition to all these things, if I shall lie, I shall be accursed living and dying, and shall be punished with everlasting punishment.'

"And after this, let him partake of bread and salt with him who commits them to him."



James having thus spoken, the elders were in an agony of terror. Therefore James, perceiving that they were greatly afraid, said:

"Hear me, brethren and fellow-servants. If we should give the books to all indiscriminately, and they should be corrupted by any daring men, or be perverted by interpretations, as you have heard that some have already done, it will remain even for those who really seek the truth, always to wander in error. Wherefore it is better that they should be with us, and that we should communicate them with all the fore-mentioned care to those who wish to live piously, and to save others. But if any one, after taking this adjuration, shall act otherwise, he shall with good reason incur eternal punishment. For why should not he who is the cause of the destruction of others not be destroyed himself?"

The elders, therefore, being pleased with the sentiments of James exclaimed, "Blessed be He who, as foreseeing all things, has graciously appointed thee as our bishop; "and when they had said this, we all rose up, and prayed to the Father and God of all, to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

[enginterzi]

more i search stronger my faith becomes by creating the true bridges between Jesus,his disciples and my faith!


The Clementine Homilies (st Clementine)


super ! i have found one more on The Clementine Homilies where he noted the conversations with Peter;

"But to those who are persuaded that He is evil, as the Scriptures say, He said, 'Call not me good, for One only is good.'


And Peter said: "I shall explain to you how goodness itself is just. Our teacher Himself first said to the Pharisee who asked Him, 'What shall I do to inherit eternal life?' 'Do not call me good; for one is good, even the Father who is in the heavens"

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VERY VERY INTERESTING CONFESSION (Peter helps the man) !

"When you are with these in Antioch, while you look like Simon, proclaim publicly your repentance, saying, 'I Simon proclaim this to you: I confess that all my statements in regard to Peter are utterly false; for he is not a deceiver, nor a murderer, nor a juggler; nor are any of the evil things true which I, urged on by wrath, said previously in regard to him. I myself therefore beg of you, I who have been the cause of your hatred to him, cease from hating him; for he is the true apostle of the true Prophet that was sent by God for the salvation of the world. Wherefore also I counsel you to believe what he preaches; for if you do not, your whole city will be utterly destroyed. Now I wish you to know for what reason I have made this confession to you. This night angels of God scourged me, the impious one, terribly, as being an enemy to the herald of the truth. I beseech you, therefore, do not listen to me, even if I myself should come at another time and attempt to say anything against Peter. For I confess to you I am a magician, I am a deceiver, I am a juggler. Yet perhaps it is possible for me by repentance to wipe out the sins which were formerly committed by me.'"

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here are other interesting parts of it;

The Morning of the Discussion.

Two days, therefore, having elapsed, and while the third was dawning, I Clement, and the rest of our companions, being roused about the second cock-crowing, in order to the discussion with Simon, found the lamp still alight, and Peter kneeling in prayer. Therefore, having finished his supplication, and turning round, and seeing us in readiness to hear...

(btw bowing down,kneeling and falling on the face are the exact way that we Muslims do our prayers)


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Peter calls Jesus "the true Prophet"

"Wherefore He, being the true Prophet, said, 'I am the gate of life; he who entereth through me entereth into life,' there being no other teaching able to save.

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another thing that is the part of my belief as well;

"Fear not him who killeth the body, but can do nothing to the soul; but fear Him who is able to cast both body and soul into the Gehenna of fire. Yea, I say unto you, fear Him."

we call it cehennem which means hell and during this conversation Peter calls it gehenna which is hell in hebrew language.

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Peter prayed after his usual manner and went out, and standing in the place where he spoke the day before, and saluting the multitudes according to the custom enjoined by his religion, he began to speak as follows:

"Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the true prophet (as I shall prove conclusively at the proper time), made concise declarations in I regard to those matters that relate to the truth, for these two reasons: first, because He was in the habit of addressing the pious, who had knowledge enough to enable them to believe the opinions uttered by Him by way of declaration; for His statements were not strange to their usual mode of thought; and in the second place, because, having a limited time assigned Him for preaching, He did not employ the method of demonstration in order that He might not spend all His limited time in arguments, for in this way it might happen that He would be fully occupied in giving the solutions of a few problems which might be understood by mental exertion, while He would not have given us to any great extent those statements which relate to the truth

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[enginterzi]

Peter on Jesus about being god or not.


from The Clementine Homilies


When Simon heard this, he said: "Since you say that we ought not to believe even the prophet that gives signs and wonders if he say that there is another god, and that you know that he even incurs the penalty of death, therefore your, teacher also was with reason cut off for having given signs and wonders."


And Peter answered: "Our Lord neither asserted that there were gods except the Creator of all, nor did He proclaim Himself to be God, but He with reason pronounced blessed him who called Him the Son of that God who has arranged the universe."

And Simon answered: "Does it not seem to you, then, that he who comes from God is God? "

And Peter said: "Tell us how this is possible; for we cannot affirm this, because we did not hear it from Him."

"In addition to this, it is the peculiarity of the Father not to have been begotten, but of the Son to have been begotten; but what is begotten cannot be compared with that which is unbegotten or self-begotten."

And Simon said: "Is it not the same on account of its origin? "

And Peter said: "He who is not the same in all respects as some one, cannot have all the same appellations applied to him as that person."

And Simon said: "This is to assert, not to prove."

And Peter said: "Why, do you not see that if the one happens to be self-begotten or unbegotten, they cannot be called the same; nor can it be asserted of him who has been begotten that he is of the same substance as he is who has begotten him?

"Learn this also: The bodies of men have immortal souls, which have been clothed with the breath of God; and having come forth from God, they are of the same substance, but they are not gods. But if they are gods, then in this way the souls of all men, both those who have died, and those who are alive, and those who shall come into being, are gods. But if in a spirit of controversy you maintain that these also are gods, what great matter is it, then, for Christ to be called God? for He has only what all have."

[enginterzi]

"Our Lord and Prophet, who hath sent us, declared to us that the wicked one, having disputed with Him forty days, and having prevailed nothing against Him, promised that he would send apostles from amongst his subjects, to deceive. Wherefore, above all, remember to shun apostle or teacher or prophet who does not first accurately compare his preaching with that of James, who was called the brother of my Lord, and to whom was entrusted to administer the church of the Hebrews in Jerusalem, -- and that even though he come to you with witnesses: lest the wickedness which disputed forty days with the Lord, and prevailed nothing, should afterwards, like lightning falling from heaven upon the earth, send a preacher to your injury.


-wicked one must be satan-

-who was the one that wicked one sent amongst the disciples? could this testimony be the other side of the story between the Disciples and Paul? i say this because first we know clearly that Disciples and Paul argued with eachother and Paul called the true disciples of Jesus as hypocrites even though Jesus prayed for them to GOD.

here is a part of Peter's letter to James;

"And this I know, not as being a prophet, but as already seeing the beginning of this very evil. For some from among the Gentiles have rejected my legal preaching, attaching themselves to certain lawless and trifling preaching of the man who is my enemy."


who could be the man who is lawless and argued with the disciples? i always wondered the testimony of the disciples concerning the problems with Paul.i know that "JAMES" in new testament is clearly directed to Paul but it was good to know the testimony of Peter as well.

[enginterzi]

"For once the king of the present time came to our King of righteousness, using no violence, for this was not in his power, but inducing and persuading, because the being persuaded lies in the power of every one.

"Approaching Him, therefore, as being king of things present, he said to the King of things future, 'All the kingdoms of the present world are subject to me; also the gold and the silver and all the luxury of this world are under my power. Wherefore fall down and worship me, and I will give you all these things.' And this he said, knowing that after He worshipped him he would have power also over Him, and thus would rob Him of the future glory and kingdom.

"But He, knowing all things, not only did not worship him, but would not receive aught of the things that were offered by him. For He pledged Himself with those that are His, to the effect that it is not lawful henceforth even to touch the things that are given over to him. Therefore He answered and said, 'Thou shall fear the Lord thy God, and Him only shall thou serve.'"


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"Were I able to cause earthquakes, and do all that I wish, I assure you I would not destroy Simon and his friends (for not to destroy men am I sent), but would make him my friend, that he might no longer, by his slanders against my preaching the truth, hinder the salvation of many.

"But if you believe me, he himself is a magician; he is a slanderer; he is a minister of evil to them who know not the truth. Therefore he has power to bring diseases on sinners, having the sinners themselves to help him in his power over them. But I am a servant of God the Creator of all things, and a disciple of His Prophet who is at His right hand.

"Wherefore I, being His apostle, preach the truth: to serve a good man I drive away diseases, for I am His second messenger, since first the disease comes, but after that the healing. By that evil-working magician, then, you were stricken with disease because you revolted from God. By me, if you believe on Him ye shall be cured: and so having had experience that He is able, you may turn to good works, and have your souls saved."


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"Therefore on the third day in Tripolis, Peter rose early and went into the garden, where there was a great water-reservoir, into which a full stream of water constantly flowed. There having bathed, and then having prayed, he sat down; and perceiving us sitting around and eagerly observing him, as wishing to hear something from him.."


we also are ordered to worship 5 times a day including one before the sun rise and we do a special bath before the prayer.

[enginterzi]

found on a web site about the divinity of Jesus;



1. Jesus Is God Because He Claimed To Be The Son Of God

In the language of the Hebrew Bible, righteous persons who follow the Will and Plan of God are know as Sons Of God.

"Adam, which was the Son Of God." Luke 3:38

"The Sons Of God saw the daughters of men... And the Sons Of God came in unto the daughters of men..." Genesis 6: 2,4.

"Israel is My Son, even my first born." Exodus 4:22

"...for I (God) am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9

"The Lord hath said unto me (David), Thou art My Son this day have I Begotten thee." Psalms 2:7.

Also Mat 5:9; Romans 8:14 etc.

Son Of God is a nothing but a metaphorical description commonly used among the Jews.





2. Jesus Is God Because He Is God's Only Begotten Son

The most widely translated sentence on earth is said to be Jesus' statement of John 3:16,

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son..."

Christians wish to say that the word Only Begotten (Monogenis) gives Jesus a special status among all the Sons of God.

However, not all Bibles translate the passage with this key word because some translators have seen the difficulty this causes.

The same word translated as Only Begotten is found at Hebrews 11:17. In this verse the word refers to Isaac. The Bible itself shows that Isaac's older brother Ishmael outlived his father (Genesis 25:9). Therefore, at no time was Isaac, strictly speaking, the only begotten of Abraham.

In the case of Isaac the Church explains that "only-begotten" is not to be understood strictly but must be modified. However, no such modification is allowed in the case of John 3:16.






3. Jesus Is God Because He Was Born Without A Human Father

Does the miraculous birth of Jesus make him a God?

If being born without a male parent entitles Jesus to being God, then Adam would have a greater right to such honor. Adam was born without either a human father or mother.





4. Jesus Is God Because He Called God The Father

The use of the term Father is inconclusive evidence that God was literally Father to Jesus. All Christians use the term when addressing God. The Jews themselves used the term (John 8:41). Jesus told them that the devil was their Father (John 8:44). Of course, he was not speaking literally.





5. Jesus Is God Because He Is Called Messiah

Muslims agree that Jesus was the Messiah. However, Christians have come to believe that there is a connotation of divinity in the word. Messiah is a Hebrew word meaning Anointed, its Grecian form is Christ. Although modern Bibles hide the fact, many individuals are called Messiah. Cyrus the Persian is called Messiah (anointed) in Isaiah 45:1.

Where Bible verses refer to Jesus, translators prefer use the word Messiah or Christ. For all other occurrences, they render only the meaning of the word as anointed. In this way they hope to give the impression that there is only one Messiah. (for details see below)





6. Jesus is GOD Because He Received Worship

The fact that Jesus accepted worship is offered as strong proof of his divinity.

John 9:38: "Lord, I believe, and he worshipped him."

Matthew 28:17 "they saw him, they worshipped him".

The word translated as worshipped in both verses is the Greek word proskuneo {pros-ku-neh'-o} which literally means: "To kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand". (Strong's concordance).

Even Prophet Daniel was worshipped by Nebuchadnezzar:

"Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face and worshipped Daniel..." (Daniel 2:46, KJV)

If He was not to be worshipped, why didn't He tell this man to stop? It appears that "worship" was a type of greeting or salutation offered by the king.

In all modern versions of the Bible, when Daniel was worshipped, the word worship has been removed. However, in the case of Jesus, the word worship still remains. (e.g., compare NIV and KJV)

The same trick is applied to the word Messiah/Christ. Messiah is a Hebrew word meaning Anointed, its Grecian form is Christ. Although modern Bibles hide the fact, many individuals are called Messiah. Cyrus ther Persian is called Messiah (anointed) in Isaiah 45:1. Where Bible verses refer to Jesus, translators prefer use the word Messiah or Christ. For all other occurrences, they render only the meaning of the word as anointed. In this way they hope to give the impression that there is only one Messiah.)





7. Jesus is GOD Because he is called Lord And God

An episode is recounted in the twentieth chapter of John and a certain Thomas is quoted as saying, My Lord and My God.

In interpreting this, Christians maintain that Thomas was addressing Jesus by both of these titles. The Muslim would have no objection to the term Lord.

As the Bible explains, the word means Master and Sarah is said to have called her husband Abraham by this title (1 Peter 3:6).

The suggestion that Thomas addressed Jesus as literally being God is a different matter. Jesus had already pointed out that the Hebrew scriptures themselves address men as gods (John 10:34; Psalms 82:6). This would allow for Thomas' use of the term.
However, Paul gave new rules in 1 Corinthians chapter 8, saying that there are many lords and gods ...yet for us there is but one God, the Father,... and one Lord, Jesus Christ...

Christians apply this verse to sort out the ambiguities of Thomas' expression. But now we are left with an unorthodox doctrine, namely that Jesus is the Father.

This ancient heresy has been branded by the Church as Patripassianism, Moarchianism, or Sebellianism. The impossibility of an orthodox interpretation of Thomas is now apparent.

The distinction between Father and Son is essential to the doctrine of Trinity.

The distinction is blurred again when John 14:9 is pressed into service. Here Jesus' reply to a man named Philip is recorded as He who has seen me has seen the Father.

A strictly literal explication would mean the unacceptable doctrine that Jesus is the Father. So interpreters say that Father is here equivalent to God. However, we cannot possibly be obliged to understand that Jesus meant to say that seeing him was exactly the same as seeing God because he was God. Our reason is found in the contrariety of John 5:37 You have neither heard His (God) voice at any time nor seen his form.




8. Jesus is GOD Because He Pre-Existed

At John 8:58 it is reported that Jesus said, Before Abraham was I am.

Even if Jesus meant to claim by these words that he was alive before Abraham was, is it sufficient ground to say that he was divine?

If Jesus lived in heaven then came to the earth it might mean something remarkable, but it would not be enough to establish him as God Christians do not imagine that the prophet Jeremiah had a prehuman existence and find a suitable way of interpreting the words of Jeremiah 1:5 which portrays such a situation, if taken literally.

However not such similar understanding is permitted by the Church in the case of John 8:58!




9. Jesus is GOD Because He claims Before Abraham was I am

In Exodus 3, it is reported that God told Moses I am what I am as most English Bibles translate the Hebrew text. At John 8:58 Jesus says, before Abraham was I am as most English Bibles translate the Greek text.

But here is the key to another deception. The original of the first text is in Hebrew, while the original of the second is in Greek. All but a few of Jesus' words are recorded in Greek.

For two hundred years before the time of Jesus the Jews used a Greek translation of their Hebrew scriptures, the Septuagint. This work translated the key phrase I am of Exodus as HO ON. However, the words of Jesus, I am, have been given in Greek as EGO EMI

If the gospel writer in John 8:58 wanted to tell his Greek-speaking audience that Jesus had imitated God he would have used the familiar words of the Septuagint.




10. Jesus is GOD Because He Had The Power To Forgive Sins

In the second chapter of Mark, Jesus tells a man, Your sins are forgiven (Mark 2:5-10). The fact that Jesus forgave sins is perhaps the action of Jesus which is most commonly seen as being synonymous with divinity since it is argued that only God can forgive sins. The customary interpretation takes the side of the Jews then present who ask, Who can forgive sins but God alone?

But the verse at John 12:49, among others, explains very well how a man could make such a statement. In this verse Jesus denies any personal initiative. (see also John 8:40; 14:10)

This same authority to forgive sins is apparently granted to his disciples: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven... (John 20:23), but it is never suggested that the disciples are thus divine!




11. Jesus is GOD Because He is the way, the truth and the life


I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father, but through me.(John 14:6)

Exactly what this verse is supposed to prove is left vague by the Christian. Does it prove the divinity of Jesus? Is it supposed to mean that God listens to no one except Jesus or those who call on Jesus?

The dictionary shows that the words "way", "truth", and "life" do not automatically carry connotations of divinity. So the Christian insist that the structure of the sentence stresses the way, the truth, and the life, as though Jesus is unique for all time.

Bill Clinton may have been the American President but he is not the first and probably not the last! So language usage alone does not do the job of proving Jesus' divinity.




12. Jesus is GOD Because He Claims That I And The Father Are One


At John 10:30 Jesus is quoted as saying I and the Father are one. The Greek word translated One is HEN. Certain scholars have insisted that the only possible understanding of this word is One in essence or nature.

One need not be a Greek scholar to refute this unjustified claim. A counter example is sufficient. The same word is used by Jesus in John 17:11, 21,22,23 as he includes his disciples in this ONEness, whatever the meaning.



13. Jesus is GOD Because He Possessed Knowledge of All Things

This is a false claim refuted by Jesus himself: No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON, but only the Father. Matthew 24:36.

This verse also denies the claim the God and Jesus are ONE is essence or nature.



14. Jesus is GOD Because He Performed Miracles

Jesus admitted that the miracles he performed were not by his own power:

•...All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven. Mat 28:18

•I cast out devils BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD... Mat 12:28

•I can of mine OWN SELF do nothing... John 5:30

All the miracles performed by Jesus have parallels in the Old Testament. For example:

•Fed the Multitudes: II Kings 4:42-44

•Healed the lepers and blind: so did others I Kings 5:14; 6:17,20;

•Acts 3:7; 5:15-16)

•Brought the dead to life: So did others: I Kings 17:22; II Kings 13:21; Ezek 37:1-14)

•Rose from the dead: So did others Ezek 37:1-14

[Bob Paradis]

Oct 30, 2010 7:23:50 GMT -5 @enginterzi said:

found on a web site about the divinity of Jesus;



1. Jesus Is God Because He Claimed To Be The Son Of God

In the language of the Hebrew Bible, righteous persons who follow the Will and Plan of God are know as Sons Of God.

"Adam, which was the Son Of God." Luke 3:38

"The Sons Of God saw the daughters of men... And the Sons Of God came in unto the daughters of men..." Genesis 6: 2,4.

"Israel is My Son, even my first born." Exodus 4:22

"...for I (God) am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9

"The Lord hath said unto me (David), Thou art My Son this day have I Begotten thee." Psalms 2:7.

Also Mat 5:9; Romans 8:14 etc.

Son Of God is a nothing but a metaphorical description commonly used among the Jews.





2. Jesus Is God Because He Is God's Only Begotten Son

The most widely translated sentence on earth is said to be Jesus' statement of John 3:16,

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son..."

Christians wish to say that the word Only Begotten (Monogenis) gives Jesus a special status among all the Sons of God.

However, not all Bibles translate the passage with this key word because some translators have seen the difficulty this causes.

The same word translated as Only Begotten is found at Hebrews 11:17. In this verse the word refers to Isaac. The Bible itself shows that Isaac's older brother Ishmael outlived his father (Genesis 25:9). Therefore, at no time was Isaac, strictly speaking, the only begotten of Abraham.

In the case of Isaac the Church explains that "only-begotten" is not to be understood strictly but must be modified. However, no such modification is allowed in the case of John 3:16.






3. Jesus Is God Because He Was Born Without A Human Father

Does the miraculous birth of Jesus make him a God?

If being born without a male parent entitles Jesus to being God, then Adam would have a greater right to such honor. Adam was born without either a human father or mother.





4. Jesus Is God Because He Called God The Father

The use of the term Father is inconclusive evidence that God was literally Father to Jesus. All Christians use the term when addressing God. The Jews themselves used the term (John 8:41). Jesus told them that the devil was their Father (John 8:44). Of course, he was not speaking literally.





5. Jesus Is God Because He Is Called Messiah

Muslims agree that Jesus was the Messiah. However, Christians have come to believe that there is a connotation of divinity in the word. Messiah is a Hebrew word meaning Anointed, its Grecian form is Christ. Although modern Bibles hide the fact, many individuals are called Messiah. Cyrus the Persian is called Messiah (anointed) in Isaiah 45:1.

Where Bible verses refer to Jesus, translators prefer use the word Messiah or Christ. For all other occurrences, they render only the meaning of the word as anointed. In this way they hope to give the impression that there is only one Messiah. (for details see below)





6. Jesus is GOD Because He Received Worship

The fact that Jesus accepted worship is offered as strong proof of his divinity.

John 9:38: "Lord, I believe, and he worshipped him."

Matthew 28:17 "they saw him, they worshipped him".

The word translated as worshipped in both verses is the Greek word proskuneo {pros-ku-neh'-o} which literally means: "To kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand". (Strong's concordance).

Even Prophet Daniel was worshipped by Nebuchadnezzar:

"Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face and worshipped Daniel..." (Daniel 2:46, KJV)

If He was not to be worshipped, why didn't He tell this man to stop? It appears that "worship" was a type of greeting or salutation offered by the king.

In all modern versions of the Bible, when Daniel was worshipped, the word worship has been removed. However, in the case of Jesus, the word worship still remains. (e.g., compare NIV and KJV)

The same trick is applied to the word Messiah/Christ. Messiah is a Hebrew word meaning Anointed, its Grecian form is Christ. Although modern Bibles hide the fact, many individuals are called Messiah. Cyrus ther Persian is called Messiah (anointed) in Isaiah 45:1. Where Bible verses refer to Jesus, translators prefer use the word Messiah or Christ. For all other occurrences, they render only the meaning of the word as anointed. In this way they hope to give the impression that there is only one Messiah.)





7. Jesus is GOD Because he is called Lord And God

An episode is recounted in the twentieth chapter of John and a certain Thomas is quoted as saying, My Lord and My God.

In interpreting this, Christians maintain that Thomas was addressing Jesus by both of these titles. The Muslim would have no objection to the term Lord.

As the Bible explains, the word means Master and Sarah is said to have called her husband Abraham by this title (1 Peter 3:6).

The suggestion that Thomas addressed Jesus as literally being God is a different matter. Jesus had already pointed out that the Hebrew scriptures themselves address men as gods (John 10:34; Psalms 82:6). This would allow for Thomas' use of the term.
However, Paul gave new rules in 1 Corinthians chapter 8, saying that there are many lords and gods ...yet for us there is but one God, the Father,... and one Lord, Jesus Christ...

Christians apply this verse to sort out the ambiguities of Thomas' expression. But now we are left with an unorthodox doctrine, namely that Jesus is the Father.

This ancient heresy has been branded by the Church as Patripassianism, Moarchianism, or Sebellianism. The impossibility of an orthodox interpretation of Thomas is now apparent.

The distinction between Father and Son is essential to the doctrine of Trinity.

The distinction is blurred again when John 14:9 is pressed into service. Here Jesus' reply to a man named Philip is recorded as He who has seen me has seen the Father.

A strictly literal explication would mean the unacceptable doctrine that Jesus is the Father. So interpreters say that Father is here equivalent to God. However, we cannot possibly be obliged to understand that Jesus meant to say that seeing him was exactly the same as seeing God because he was God. Our reason is found in the contrariety of John 5:37 You have neither heard His (God) voice at any time nor seen his form.




8. Jesus is GOD Because He Pre-Existed

At John 8:58 it is reported that Jesus said, Before Abraham was I am.

Even if Jesus meant to claim by these words that he was alive before Abraham was, is it sufficient ground to say that he was divine?

If Jesus lived in heaven then came to the earth it might mean something remarkable, but it would not be enough to establish him as God Christians do not imagine that the prophet Jeremiah had a prehuman existence and find a suitable way of interpreting the words of Jeremiah 1:5 which portrays such a situation, if taken literally.

However not such similar understanding is permitted by the Church in the case of John 8:58!




9. Jesus is GOD Because He claims Before Abraham was I am

In Exodus 3, it is reported that God told Moses I am what I am as most English Bibles translate the Hebrew text. At John 8:58 Jesus says, before Abraham was I am as most English Bibles translate the Greek text.

But here is the key to another deception. The original of the first text is in Hebrew, while the original of the second is in Greek. All but a few of Jesus' words are recorded in Greek.

For two hundred years before the time of Jesus the Jews used a Greek translation of their Hebrew scriptures, the Septuagint. This work translated the key phrase I am of Exodus as HO ON. However, the words of Jesus, I am, have been given in Greek as EGO EMI

If the gospel writer in John 8:58 wanted to tell his Greek-speaking audience that Jesus had imitated God he would have used the familiar words of the Septuagint.




10. Jesus is GOD Because He Had The Power To Forgive Sins

In the second chapter of Mark, Jesus tells a man, Your sins are forgiven (Mark 2:5-10). The fact that Jesus forgave sins is perhaps the action of Jesus which is most commonly seen as being synonymous with divinity since it is argued that only God can forgive sins. The customary interpretation takes the side of the Jews then present who ask, Who can forgive sins but God alone?

But the verse at John 12:49, among others, explains very well how a man could make such a statement. In this verse Jesus denies any personal initiative. (see also John 8:40; 14:10)

This same authority to forgive sins is apparently granted to his disciples: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven... (John 20:23), but it is never suggested that the disciples are thus divine!




11. Jesus is GOD Because He is the way, the truth and the life


I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father, but through me.(John 14:6)

Exactly what this verse is supposed to prove is left vague by the Christian. Does it prove the divinity of Jesus? Is it supposed to mean that God listens to no one except Jesus or those who call on Jesus?

The dictionary shows that the words "way", "truth", and "life" do not automatically carry connotations of divinity. So the Christian insist that the structure of the sentence stresses the way, the truth, and the life, as though Jesus is unique for all time.

Bill Clinton may have been the American President but he is not the first and probably not the last! So language usage alone does not do the job of proving Jesus' divinity.




12. Jesus is GOD Because He Claims That I And The Father Are One


At John 10:30 Jesus is quoted as saying I and the Father are one. The Greek word translated One is HEN. Certain scholars have insisted that the only possible understanding of this word is One in essence or nature.

One need not be a Greek scholar to refute this unjustified claim. A counter example is sufficient. The same word is used by Jesus in John 17:11, 21,22,23 as he includes his disciples in this ONEness, whatever the meaning.



13. Jesus is GOD Because He Possessed Knowledge of All Things

This is a false claim refuted by Jesus himself: No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON, but only the Father. Matthew 24:36.

This verse also denies the claim the God and Jesus are ONE is essence or nature.



14. Jesus is GOD Because He Performed Miracles

Jesus admitted that the miracles he performed were not by his own power:

•...All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven. Mat 28:18

•I cast out devils BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD... Mat 12:28

•I can of mine OWN SELF do nothing... John 5:30

All the miracles performed by Jesus have parallels in the Old Testament. For example:

•Fed the Multitudes: II Kings 4:42-44

•Healed the lepers and blind: so did others I Kings 5:14; 6:17,20;

•Acts 3:7; 5:15-16)

•Brought the dead to life: So did others: I Kings 17:22; II Kings 13:21; Ezek 37:1-14)

•Rose from the dead: So did others Ezek 37:1-14

While you have a few potentially viable arguments in this post, none of it is convincing. I believe that if this post were held to objective scrutiny, the favor would fall on the side of those who believe that Jesus is God. I certainly give you credit for thorough examination though. Since you and I view these arguments with different color glasses, it would be difficult to come to a consensus.

[enginterzi]

Bob,

the faith is given by GOD so its not part of my intention to change what you are taught to believe. if you or anyone else think that i try to offend anyone then all i say is that it is not true.believing in Christ is also part of my belief.it may sound funny to some of you but i from my side try to help about reminding GOD whom you call FATHER is the ONE who has authority over all including Jesus and Jesus himself says that;

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.


it means that Jesus learned from GOD.but can GOD learn from another? from who did GOD whom you call FATHER learn?


John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

as you see that Jesus and GOD are different person,Jesus says he ALWAYS do things to please GOD.and please do not tell me that the same person can be father,son and husband etc at same time type of things since this person's father personality does not give order to his son personality neither sits at the right side of himself.they tried so hard but trinity is a man made craziness which h nothing to do with GOD neither with HIS order.Jesus should have told this openly instead of making alterations with the word of GOD and changing verses such as Mark 10-18 by taking "The FATHER" off from the verse to change the meaning of the KNOWLEDGE.




Jesus was seeking the will of GOD whom you call FATHER;

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


JOHN 3.16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.


also being before Abraham does not make him god.


i guess these verses by itself destroys the trinity imagination;

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.


or GOD is subjected to HIMSELF ?


i mean even Paul who tried to deceive the true Disciples of Jesus did not believe in trinity;

"For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (1Ti 2:5)

[enginterzi]

Bob,you do not believe that there are pagan additions into the true teachings of Jesus but here are the sme teacings of Horus who is part of the Egyptian Trinity;


"I have given bread to the hungry man and water to the thirsty man and clothing to the naked person and a boat to the shipwrecked mariner."

"For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me..." Matthew 25:35-36



"I am Horus in glory...I am the Lord of Light...I am the victorious one...I am the heir of endless time...I, even I, am he that knoweth the paths of heaven."

“Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12


i can tell you tens of more.check the origin of december 25. check about sunday,check about rising on the 3. day and many others in pagan religions.i believe in Jesus and separating what he taught from the pagan additions is not a bad thing but a good thing.

i bet if Jesus was here on this earth he would rebuke people as he did to children of Israel who thought they were following Moses.that is why he said;


"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'


But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'



Jesus answered: HEAR O ISRAEL,THE LORD OUR GOD,THE LORD IS ONE !


Jesus saith unto her, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, l ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.'"

[enginterzi]

Bob,


please tell me honestly,do these not prove anything against trinity? Jesus says that only GOD whom you call FATHER is GOOD.and do these official letters not prove that a verse that contains the teaching of Jesus was corrupted for the sake of trinity doctrine? why did early Church Fathers quoted this teaching from Gospel which is different than today's version? or even if you are so strict about your belief to not to see what i talk about,can you also not see the way that early Church Fathers understood that verse that addresses only the FATHER ? if Jesus is god then why only the FATHER is good? i bet it is another challenge for people's imagination to create an answer but


Pope st. Clement;

"Now, that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus is good, the Word Himself will again avouch: "For He is kind to the unthankful and the evil;" and further, when He says," Be merciful, as your Father is merciful." Still further also He plainly says, "None is good, but My Father, who is in heaven."


***************************************************

Saint Irenaeus;


"And to the person who said to Him, "Good Master," He confessed that God who is truly good, saying, "Why callest thou Me good: there is One who is good, the Father in the heavens; "


***************************************************

Origen;


“There is none good but one, God the Father.”


***************************************************
st.Clementine Homilies;

And Peter said: "I shall explain to you how goodness itself is just. Our teacher Himself first said to the Pharisee who asked Him, 'What shall I do to inherit eternal life?' 'Do not call me good; for one is good, even the Father who is in the heavens"

[Michael Wells]

i can tell you tens of more.check the origin of december 25. check about sunday,check about rising on the 3. day and many others in pagan religions.i believe in Jesus and separating what he taught from the pagan additions is not a bad thing but a good thing.

I agree. Along with all other pagan holidays.

[Bob Paradis]

Oct 30, 2010 15:09:20 GMT -5 @enginterzi said:

Bob,


please tell me honestly,do these not prove anything against trinity? Jesus says that only GOD whom you call FATHER is GOOD.and do these official letters not prove that a verse that contains the teaching of Jesus was corrupted for the sake of trinity doctrine? why did early Church Fathers quoted this teaching from Gospel which is different than today's version? or even if you are so strict about your belief to not to see what i talk about,can you also not see the way that early Church Fathers understood that verse that addresses only the FATHER ? if Jesus is god then why only the FATHER is good? i bet it is another challenge for people's imagination to create an answer but


Pope st. Clement;

"Now, that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus is good, the Word Himself will again avouch: "For He is kind to the unthankful and the evil;" and further, when He says," Be merciful, as your Father is merciful." Still further also He plainly says, "None is good, but My Father, who is in heaven."


***************************************************

Saint Irenaeus;


"And to the person who said to Him, "Good Master," He confessed that God who is truly good, saying, "Why callest thou Me good: there is One who is good, the Father in the heavens; "


***************************************************

Origen;


“There is none good but one, God the Father.”


***************************************************
st.Clementine Homilies;

And Peter said: "I shall explain to you how goodness itself is just. Our teacher Himself first said to the Pharisee who asked Him, 'What shall I do to inherit eternal life?' 'Do not call me good; for one is good, even the Father who is in the heavens"

None of it presents a problem for me, but to your credit, it has caused problems for groups of Christians throught the centuries.


Jesus said that he and the Father are one. If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God. Jesus is the eternally begotten son of the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son..........................................................................................................................................................................................................ONE GOD in 3 persons.

[Bob Paradis]

John 14 ; 9 Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.

John 14 ; 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.

[enginterzi]

Oct 30, 2010 20:52:55 GMT -5 Bob Paradis said:

John 14 ; 9 Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.

John 14 ; 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.

if that is what you understood from those verses then maybe you should read some other verses as well.Jesus means that anyone who believes and obeys GOD are 1 with HIM and the following verse proves this;

Jesus said, "I and My Father are one" (John 10:30). Christ prayed that his disciples, both then and in the future, would be unified in mind and purpose just as he and the Father were. "I do not pray for these [disciples] alone," He said, "but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us" (John 17:20-21).

so Jesus prayed that all believers to be ONE IN GOD,so everyone who believes in GOD are ONE WITHIN GOD and Jesus.now how many gods we have in our hands if that verse made Jesus a god?


Jesus clearly mentioned what believers are to him BY HIS OWN WORDS;

Luke 8:20 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you."

Luke 8:21 Jesus replied, "My mother and my brothers are all those who hear God's word and obey it."

come on now,are we god's brother? no,but we are Jesus' brothers!


************************************************

what did Jesus mean below? it is clear but i would like to hear from you the ONE who sents is GOD whom you call Father.the one who was sent,is Jesus.and what kind of example he uses to explain his presence by GOD? a LORD and HIS servant?

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."




also;

if GOD beget Jesus then that time is the beginning of Jesus.

is Father begotten? no

is Jesus begotten (according to Christians)? yes

then how can they be the same? if GOD is able to beget or create or make Jesus then HE can do this one or more of times and neither of them will be as GOD who is UNBEGOTTEN.



GOD Almighty is Greater than Jesus.can 1 thing be compared within itself? GOD has greater and smaller parts in HIM? when Jesus died GOD became 65 or 70 % ?

John 14.28 THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I


No one is "Good", including Jesus. Only GOD Almighty is Good.

"Why callest thou Me good: there is One who is good, the Father in the heavens "



Jesus said he doesn't know when the Hour will come. Only GOD Almighty Knows.he is "god" but does not know the hour? he is in GOD but does not know things?

Mark 13.32 "However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.


Jesus said that OUR God is One GOD.(and THE LORD in this verse is YAHWEH not the lord which is used for Jesus that is also used for Abraham but translated as "master"). Jesus does not say "YOUR GOD" but says "OUR GOD";



29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.




Jesus also said "My GOD and your GOD".

Jesus saith unto her, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, l ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.'"



Jesus bowed his face down to the ground to GOD Almighty.below also shos that GOD and Jesus have different wills.he also many times mentioned that he came to see FATHER's will.

MATTHEW 26.39. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."






Jesus is GOD but can not know what to say except what he hears.is that how you understand GOD? how about GOD whom you call FATHER,can anyone command HIM as HE commanded Jesus? can anyone teach HIM anything as HE taught to Jesus? dont get upset since these are what Jesus said;

Jhn 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.


Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Jhn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.




at Matthew 4:10 we read:” Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’

[enginterzi]

also Jesus was not the word of GOD but a word of GOD.if he was the word of GOD then he should not have been taught by GOD;


" For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."


I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.


Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.




it was the same as Jesus taught to his disciples;

Mt 5:2 And he (Jesus) opened his mouth, and taught them,

Mt 7:29 For he (Jesus) taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes

Mr 2:13 And he (Jesus) went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.

Mr 9:31 For he (Jesus) taught his disciples,



then his disciples went away and taught to people what they learnt from Jesus,who learnt from GOD.