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Post by Mark Evans on Feb 6, 2012 7:26:18 GMT -5
This is a great idea as it makes sense. As Brian stated Pro Rodeo has already has a business plan in place that works. This is something that COULD bring armwrestling to the next level by offering bigger prize money more competitors will join the sport.
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Post by Jerry Herron on Feb 6, 2012 10:37:24 GMT -5
I like ur idea but I as others have said would have to see leagal papers. The state where the money is going and as fare as paying for the travels of the top pulls crazy they can pay there own travel as everyone else does all it sounds like to me is u are not wanting to pay the top puller any money to come to ur tournament
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Feb 6, 2012 11:26:38 GMT -5
Before you do any of this, you will have to have an Armwrestler registration database. Not only will this help with tracking members and dues, but will also track people's Armwrestler status.
I know it's not just Armwrestling, but the SANDBAGGING 10 year Novice or Amateur HURTS our sport and hurts first timers chances of coming back. David mentioned this in his interview.
Also just a thought, make it a deal with the promoters that if a random puller wants to pull PRO, he can buy a card at the tournament and it covers their first entry fee. He/She would then be responsible to pay the UNION said dues.
Not sure who it would best be to update the database. Maybe only one person per region can update the UNION dues field or something, but the promoter can update the puller information.
If organization is what the Olympics wants, BJJ doesn't even have a fighter registration database to track a-hole sandbaggers.
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Post by Karen Bean on Feb 6, 2012 13:57:04 GMT -5
As one of those evil "promoters" that have been referred to.............. ;D let me throw in a couple of comments:
I have communicated with Fred and Willie (WAF President and General Secretary) and the jest of it is not that armwrestling has to come up with $50K. Not a whole lot has changed since the days Frank and I were involved in this Olympic quest. 1. You have to be recognized by your own Olympic Committee in your country first before the IOC will consider you. 2. You have to be accepted by the Sport Accord before the IOC will consider you.
WAF is in communication with the Sport Accord and working that avenue.
Fred tells me he did speak with Tony Kaiser but expressed that he didn't make it as simple to Tony as armwrestling just needs $50K
Now, onto your membership idea. AAA charged membership for years - it started long before Frank and I acquired the organization. The membership dues paid for a quarterly magazine and at the last time dues were charged, the price was $25 per year. Once the illustrious internet put a stop to people needing to read about armwrestling events, results, articles, training, etc, we discontinued the magazine.
I can honestly say some of the comments here do not surprise me. It seems there is a constant reference to basically boycotting events or the push to have people not attend certain events. And, I'm seeing it again. If the promoters don't get on board, then people will be encouraged to not attend their events. And this is even thought of in order to "promote the sport"? No one should ever be discouraged to attend any event out there for any reason.
People do not have money. Period. Every promoter out there has suffered a tremendous amount of people not being able to attend events over the past couple of years. The economy is in the toilet and armwrestling is an expensive hobby when you figure in gasoline/airfare, hotels, meals, and entry fees. ArmTV has given armwrestling a product and the majority of the armwrestlers can't even afford to pay for its membership fees. And that's even after Gary offered a yearly price that I believe factored out to be about $10 per month.
Don't fool yourselves either to think that the armwrestlers will dictate where the money goes and what it's spent on. The armwrestlers will not - a select few will.
Gabe, if this is something that you want to do, then do it. I support your thinking and passion for the sport. However, don't form a union or a new organization or anything else. Promote the sport, collect membership fees to enter your events and if some others want to join in, great. If you choose to make it mandatory to be a member to compete in your events, do it.
Before any of you decide to do this, think long and hard about "not supporting" others. Ask yourself, how does that help this sport or the competitors in it, if you attempt to dictate where the competitors can pull?
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Post by David Owens on Feb 6, 2012 14:52:11 GMT -5
As one of those evil "promoters" that have been referred to.............. ;D let me throw in a couple of comments: I have communicated with Fred and Willie (WAF President and General Secretary) and the jest of it is not that armwrestling has to come up with $50K. Not a whole lot has changed since the days Frank and I were involved in this Olympic quest. 1. You have to be recognized by your own Olympic Committee in your country first before the IOC will consider you. 2. You have to be accepted by the Sport Accord before the IOC will consider you. WAF is in communication with the Sport Accord and working that avenue. Fred tells me he did speak with Tony Kaiser but expressed that he didn't make it as simple to Tony as armwrestling just needs $50K Now, onto your membership idea. AAA charged membership for years - it started long before Frank and I acquired the organization. The membership dues paid for a quarterly magazine and at the last time dues were charged, the price was $25 per year. Once the illustrious internet put a stop to people needing to read about armwrestling events, results, articles, training, etc, we discontinued the magazine. I can honestly say some of the comments here do not surprise me. It seems there is a constant reference to basically boycotting events or the push to have people not attend certain events. And, I'm seeing it again. If the promoters don't get on board, then people will be encouraged to not attend their events. And this is even thought of in order to "promote the sport"? No one should ever be discouraged to attend any event out there for any reason. People do not have money. Period. Every promoter out there has suffered a tremendous amount of people not being able to attend events over the past couple of years. The economy is in the toilet and armwrestling is an expensive hobby when you figure in gasoline/airfare, hotels, meals, and entry fees. ArmTV has given armwrestling a product and the majority of the armwrestlers can't even afford to pay for its membership fees. And that's even after Gary offered a yearly price that I believe factored out to be about $10 per month. Don't fool yourselves either to think that the armwrestlers will dictate where the money goes and what it's spent on. The armwrestlers will not - a select few will. Gabe, if this is something that you want to do, then do it. I support your thinking and passion for the sport. However, don't form a union or a new organization or anything else. Promote the sport, collect membership fees to enter your events and if some others want to join in, great. If you choose to make it mandatory to be a member to compete in your events, do it. Before any of you decide to do this, think long and hard about "not supporting" others. Ask yourself, how does that help this sport or the competitors in it, if you attempt to dictate where the competitors can pull? Its not about one person dictating where competitors can pull, its about the pullers coming to an agreement and simply supporting events that will best benefit the sport. Not supporting more than one state event per state, not supporting more than one national event in the us......the reason we have three is because its beneficial to the promoters to call their event nationals $$$$$ If a union is formed and everything is left to a majority vote how will the armwrestlers not dictate where the money goes? This is not the usaf where you need to be grandfathered in and then is there for life with no way of electing new board members based on what we the armwrestlers think would be good for the sport Do your thing gabe, just make it legal Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by Karen Bean on Feb 6, 2012 15:08:57 GMT -5
David, contrary to what you believe, ALL events benefit our sport! As for having 3 Nationals being because it's beneficial dollar wise to promoters - you're saying then that the AAA, USAA and the USAF were formed strictly for money? And you know this to be fact? How?
You seem to be one of very very few David that advocate boycotting. How very sad and shallow on your part. Many an event has been around long before you were even born with promoters that have supplied their own money, sweat, and backbone yet you come along with your vast knowledge and experience and want boycotts. Yes, that's the answer in building our sport - be completely blind to who has given a damn about this sport and what they've done for it. Makes good sense to me.
A majority vote? How David do you propose to achieve a majority vote when all of your members won't ever be in the same place at the same time in order to cast a vote? Or do you plan to spend money to send out ballots multiple times per year to allow those paying members to vote?
Also David bear in mind - the USAF board members are only there for ONE event per year! Pretty hard to make life altering decisions when you hold one event per year and it follows the same rulings as the world body.
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Post by Derek Smith on Feb 6, 2012 15:37:32 GMT -5
I think this is a great idea. I would love to have my 'Professional Arm Wrestler' card. I hope the requirements to obtain a 'pro' card would be more than just paying the fee. Maybe you must place top whatever in an AM class at a CHOSEN event, which is chosen by the people we elect. Or some way of verifying that you actually deserve to pull in the 'pro' ranks. It would mean alot more to alot more people if you had to earn it, i believe. It kind of sucks knowing that i can pull a 'pro' class right now but so can my next door neighbor who has never pulled before and has no idea what he is doing. I believe you should have to earn your way in.
It would also be cool to one day have proof that you are a 'pro' puller, i would show it off, haha. ;D
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Post by travisrobinson on Feb 6, 2012 17:02:19 GMT -5
Finally Davey O and Karen are getting along again!!!...dont worry Karen i got a couple of bids on some beach houses...so your Iron Fisted Regin will soon be over!!
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Post by David Owens on Feb 6, 2012 17:55:56 GMT -5
David, contrary to what you believe, ALL events benefit our sport! As for having 3 Nationals being because it's beneficial dollar wise to promoters - you're saying then that the AAA, USAA and the USAF were formed strictly for money? And you know this to be fact? How? You seem to be one of very very few David that advocate boycotting. How very sad and shallow on your part. Many an event has been around long before you were even born with promoters that have supplied their own money, sweat, and backbone yet you come along with your vast knowledge and experience and want boycotts. Yes, that's the answer in building our sport - be completely blind to who has given a damn about this sport and what they've done for it. Makes good sense to me. A majority vote? How David do you propose to achieve a majority vote when all of your members won't ever be in the same place at the same time in order to cast a vote? Or do you plan to spend money to send out ballots multiple times per year to allow those paying members to vote? Also David bear in mind - the USAF board members are only there for ONE event per year! Pretty hard to make life altering decisions when you hold one event per year and it follows the same rulings as the world body. Well karen if I am one of very few then it would never come to pass because the armwrestlers would have made a decision and voted on it I don't care at all about the past or history, it doesn't matter its in the past. Change part of life, progression and anything that stands in the way of that progress is a hendurence. And like always karen you are putting words in my mouth, I said the reason we still have three nationals was because of money, this has been verified by both yourself and leonard harkless several times. I understand sponcers like to see the term nationals on a ticket for an event but let's face it these sponcers aren't making us all rich promoters and armwrestlers alike! The people who give a damn about the sport? Right you mean the armwrestlers who keep it going right? Surely you don't mean the sets of promoters who won't come togather on solutions to problems because they believe they are right.....nationals.....rules....class guidelines....we know it works for you the way it is! Good for you Let's see how do we get a majority vote when we can't be in the same place at the same time......lol its 2012 I guess we will just use the internet, by now everyone can access it with little trouble and for those who don't have it public librarys do not charge! Usaf holds one event a year because the promoters want it that way ....if the usaf held state tournaments what would we need all these other orgs for? Karen I don't think you are bad people, I've known denise and leonard for 15 years and certainly don't think they are bad people, but you will not budge or even take a vote from the pullers on issues that directly effect the sport and the pullers ,and that is the only issue I have with any of the promoters. We had this conversation, I know you wouldn't be involved if you didn't love it, we simply have completely different ideas of what is good for the sport Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by Gabe Moore on Feb 6, 2012 19:37:03 GMT -5
Alrighty then...my intention was to 1. openly discuss and strategize how we can begin moving towards financially growing our sport 2. Not to end on just my idea or anyone's idea...but to build from a vision I have for the sport. 3. Not to get in a back and forth disagreement on what we can/cannot do, instead, conclude on a solid plan of action. 4. Ensure that those who are chosen to lead us, understand where the majority want to go. 5. Conclude with a scheduled conference call to finalize action.
Our sport is a small community of people, many of which would easily adapt to change, only because there isn't any defined direction. We can rally change. It's just going to take all of us realizing that 1. It can be done 2. We have so many different levels of skil in our community(IT, accountants, lawyers, insurance agents, and subject matter experts in several areas). We shouldn't have problems creating databases, drawing up legal papers, etc.
I believe in the open/pro cards. I believe it can work. However, I do not believe anyone should begin pointing us in a direction in which 100% of our leadership are not on board.
Let's unite, and figure this out.
I guess I'll conclude that this string of posts can be a message for whoever is in charge.... We are searching for something to change. How can we effectively move forward?
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Post by Mike West on Feb 6, 2012 19:47:17 GMT -5
It can work if done right. same thing in fighting,or dirtbike racing you have to have a pro card to be in the pro class. And it could be beneficial to AW as a whole as well. Ryan, and how much money do these events (fighting, dirt biking, etc) pay out in prizes? As an armwrestler and promoter I've heard complaints over the years about entry fees being to high, or to much for the amount of prize money given. I also remember all the complaints when AAA charged a "Membership Fee" which covered your quarterly magazine, so now it's a great idea to start charging "Membership Fees or Union dues" to pullers to compete. Just in case you folks haven't noticed, attendance at events everywhere have been down for the last couple years, the economy is hurting the sport, and you wanna start charging pullers even more just to compete Derek, is a PRO card gonna make you a better armwrestler? Who cares if you have a card to prove you are a Pro armwrestler, how about showing them your accomplishments. I could buy a PBA card for bowling also, does it mean I can win on tour? I was a union member for 22 years, I want NO part of another union, $$$ corrupts people, money isn't the reason armwrestling is not in the Olympics, and when that is figured out then where would all these dues go? Have you guys actually set down and thought about all the things it would take to do this "Union" you want, or maybe some of you haven't been around long enough to realize that many of the brainstorm ideas that you have had have already been done or tried, and that when someone that has "been there done that" tries to explain it to you you think they are trying to keep the sport from advancing, or they are just in it for the money And if these promoters are in it for all the money, don't you think that they would also want the sport to grow? (more $$$$) Simply amazing at some of the stuff you see on message boards these days
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Herman Stevens
Gold Member
Team Bakersfield / Team Louisiana
Posts: 730
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Post by Herman Stevens on Feb 6, 2012 19:55:30 GMT -5
David, contrary to what you believe, ALL events benefit our sport! As for having 3 Nationals being because it's beneficial dollar wise to promoters - you're saying then that the AAA, USAA and the USAF were formed strictly for money? And you know this to be fact? How? You seem to be one of very very few David that advocate boycotting. How very sad and shallow on your part. Many an event has been around long before you were even born with promoters that have supplied their own money, sweat, and backbone yet you come along with your vast knowledge and experience and want boycotts. Yes, that's the answer in building our sport - be completely blind to who has given a damn about this sport and what they've done for it. Makes good sense to me. A majority vote? How David do you propose to achieve a majority vote when all of your members won't ever be in the same place at the same time in order to cast a vote? Or do you plan to spend money to send out ballots multiple times per year to allow those paying members to vote? Also David bear in mind - the USAF board members are only there for ONE event per year! Pretty hard to make life altering decisions when you hold one event per year and it follows the same rulings as the world body. I do not agree on the point that "ALL events benefit our sport." Events that are incapable of filling out classes do not benefit the sport. Events that allow 10 year veterans to pull novice and amateur classes do not benefit the sport. Events scheduled on the same day splitting competition do not benefit the sport. Events that give out a national title without national level competition do not benefit the sport. I'm sure we could go on and on...
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Post by Gabe Moore on Feb 6, 2012 20:00:42 GMT -5
All great points Herman.
We need a solution to these problems. We also need to focus on what has been good for the sport, and enhance them.
I wrongly believe a $50 annual membership fee would begin to set the sails in the right direction....it won't answer or solve all of the issues, but it will solve the financial issue. We need a panel....or board to openly discuss where the dues go, and where to reinvest.
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 6, 2012 20:25:06 GMT -5
I'm with Mike West. (WONDERFUL post, Mike.)
The observation I would like to make at this point is that everyone is discussing solutions when the challenges have not been defined. Sure, people have stated what the problems are 'in their opinion' but there is no actual definition of the objective. So far it is pie in sky, second or third hand information, and a complete and total lack of historical perspective.
Before any sane person would put money in an envelope and send it to an as-yet fictitious entity:
1. Define the objective. (Define EACH objective separately)
How do you know other people even agree with the end-result you have in mind? That is where you need to begin if you want buy-in.
If I can give you some feedback based on what I'm reading in the last bunch of threads, they all have a common theme: Let's charge people money for something that is not defined. Let's increase the amount of bureaucracy. Let's limit participation unless the first two are met.
How about some due diligence first...
What is the project? What is the scope? Who are the stakeholders? (and why these people?) Can we see the project charter so that everyone can decide if this is a project they want to be a part of or buy into?
For my part, I only care about a project if it addresses the primary issue: Outside money. How do we get somebody to finance this sport other than the competitors?
THE ARMWRESTLERS ARE THE PRODUCT. NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE.
The WAF board is exactly what you guys are discussing. And in my opinion they are the problem more often than they are the solution. The WAF does what is easy for the WAF. Not what is good for the sport. Not what is good for the armwrestler.
I hate unions. I hate bureaucracy. I will support neither.
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Post by Mike West on Feb 6, 2012 20:39:06 GMT -5
I'm with Mike West. (WONDERFUL post, Mike.) The observation I would like to make at this point is that everyone is discussing solutions when the challenges have not been defined. Sure, people have stated what the problems are 'in their opinion' but there is no actual definition of the objective. So far it is pie in sky, second or third hand information, and a complete and total lack of historical perspective. Before any sane person would put money in an envelope and send it to an as-yet fictitious entity: 1. Define the objective. (Define EACH objective separately) How do you know other people even agree with the end-result you have in mind? That is where you need to begin if you want buy-in. If I can give you some feedback based on what I'm reading in the last bunch of threads, they all have a common theme: Let's charge people money for something that is not defined. Let's increase the amount of bureaucracy. Let's limit participation unless the first two are met. How about some due diligence first... What is the project? What is the scope? Who are the stakeholders? (and why these people?) Can we see the project charter so that everyone can decide if this is a project they want to be a part of or buy into? For my part, I only care about a project if it addresses the primary issue: Outside money. How do we get somebody to finance this sport other than the competitors? THE ARMWRESTLERS ARE THE PRODUCT. NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE. The WAF board is exactly what you guys are discussing. And in my opinion they are the problem more often than they are the solution. The WAF does what is easy for the WAF. Not what is good for the sport. Not what is good for the armwrestler. I hate unions. I hate bureaucracy. I will support neither. You better be careful John, you won't have many friends thinking like that
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