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Post by David Owens on Feb 7, 2012 0:36:04 GMT -5
Herman, you are fairly new to the sport and should have a newer perspective than some, so would you please be specific based on your experience What events are "incapable" of filling classes and why are they "incapable"? What events allow 10 year veterans to pull novice/amateur? Who are these 10 year veterans? What are the organization's rules regarding novice/amateur? What events are scheduled on the same day? And how would you propose this does not happen? This topic has come under discussion lately and I would like to hear your thoughts on how it could stop? We all know that at times venues do dictate dates, as do sponsors but mostly it's not for these reasons that events are scheduled the same day. What events give out National titles that do not have National level competitors? You guys like to play these games... 1. XAC Tournament 11/12/11 sanctioned by AAA I consider the promotion for this tournament lazy. I know I don't know everything that was done to advertise this tournament, but there wasn't an attempt to create any hype for this tournament. 2 people in the 220s Left Class 4(not sure) in the 220s Right Class Supers was only slightly better because Colby and I both pulled up. I don't believe any 10 year veterans pulled novice, but Bruce pulled novice, and he has a win on Lee Browning. 2. Veterans pulling novice occurs everywhere. I've only pulled novice and amateur once. I've seen UAL and Amateur World Championship events with experienced guys in the novice/amateur. I won't name names. 3. Happens to often to discuss. 4. I believe AAA Nationals was in New York last. I don't believe a single top 10 guy was in the 198 class, but I could be wrong. I heard of people pulling UP a weight class to get a title. Overall, it looked like a non-ranked person had a pretty good chance of winning. What's worse? The rankings or AAA nationals? Maybe I should've gone to AAA Nationals... Herman, you are the man....way to call it like you see it! Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by Karen Bean on Feb 7, 2012 6:40:22 GMT -5
Karen, Herman is koo koo for coa coa puffs!!! Seriously though Travis, Herman is fairly new and a lot of time you will find that new people form their own opinions/ideas based solely on what they themselves have seen and experienced. Not on rhetoric spewed from others that think they know everything. And, those opinions/ideas can be beneficial to listen to.
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Post by Karen Bean on Feb 7, 2012 6:42:07 GMT -5
Ryan, and how much money do these events (fighting, dirt biking, etc) pay out in prizes? As an armwrestler and promoter I've heard complaints over the years about entry fees being to high, or to much for the amount of prize money given. I also remember all the complaints when AAA charged a "Membership Fee" which covered your quarterly magazine, so now it's a great idea to start charging "Membership Fees or Union dues" to pullers to compete. Just in case you folks haven't noticed, attendance at events everywhere have been down for the last couple years, the economy is hurting the sport, and you wanna start charging pullers even more just to compete ![:-/](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png) Derek, is a PRO card gonna make you a better armwrestler? Who cares if you have a card to prove you are a Pro armwrestler, how about showing them your accomplishments. I could buy a PBA card for bowling also, does it mean I can win on tour? I was a union member for 22 years, I want NO part of another union, $$$ corrupts people, money isn't the reason armwrestling is not in the Olympics, and when that is figured out then where would all these dues go? Have you guys actually set down and thought about all the things it would take to do this "Union" you want, or maybe some of you haven't been around long enough to realize that many of the brainstorm ideas that you have had have already been done or tried, and that when someone that has "been there done that" tries to explain it to you you think they are trying to keep the sport from advancing, or they are just in it for the money ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) And if these promoters are in it for all the money, don't you think that they would also want the sport to grow? (more $$$$) Simply amazing at some of the stuff you see on message boards these days ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) they want the sport to grow Mike, but only in its current form, they do not want to lose any control they currently have. Nobody said they were just in it for the money, you guys keep twisting words to make them whatever you want most can read through that. David, just what "CONTROL" do Leonard/Denise and Frank/I currently have?
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Post by Karen Bean on Feb 7, 2012 6:50:47 GMT -5
Herman, you are fairly new to the sport and should have a newer perspective than some, so would you please be specific based on your experience What events are "incapable" of filling classes and why are they "incapable"? What events allow 10 year veterans to pull novice/amateur? Who are these 10 year veterans? What are the organization's rules regarding novice/amateur? What events are scheduled on the same day? And how would you propose this does not happen? This topic has come under discussion lately and I would like to hear your thoughts on how it could stop? We all know that at times venues do dictate dates, as do sponsors but mostly it's not for these reasons that events are scheduled the same day. What events give out National titles that do not have National level competitors? yes Herman spell it out so we can pick your posts apart since we have been around longer than you ![:-X](http://www.maine-armwrestling.com/emoticons/vomit.gif) we all know the problems are there it has been spelled out a million times on a million threads but because I love to argue with Karen and I care about the progress of the sport I will do it again 3 nationals - it doesnt matter the level of the competetion, it is silly to have three nationals in a sport and we look that way to the rest of the world. Fact Karen and Leonard have both stated numerous times that taking away the name Nationals from their events would cost them sponsers and probably entrees both of which equal $$$$$ NOW in their defense I'm not saying its because they are personaly cashing in on these events although I have my reservations, what I am saying is that they believe having a event with a good turnout or better prizes than most is more important than the integrity of our titles in the US. maybe they are right I do not share their belief, I think they could change the name and still have great events but thats just my honest opinion class clarification- its a common topic that is brought up over and over and the the question has been posed would you try to come to an agreement with other promoters on clarifying what is novice ,amateur, open, pro? would you conform to one standard ruling for the greater good of the sport?.....most common answer, NO and NO "our way works for us" you can armtv it and leonard spells it out, I have been over it in pms with Karen and got the exact same answer.....nope wouldnt even consider it rules - now I understand there have been slight variations to rules in certain orgs, but lets just settle on a set and train to those rules, if my shoulder crosses centerline in waf rules its a foul, but under AAA rules I can get in my opponents lap(calm down travis) as long as my elbow is on the pad and im holding onto the peg, just an example but its killing our guys at worlds and even at unifieds because many people are not aware of the rules .....I DONT CARE WHOS RULES ARE RIGHT, just pick one and lets stick to it toe stepping - FACT there are too many tournaments in the US too close togather aimed at the same group of pullers, I am all for more and more events but we need to limit the number of pro or cash events so the ones we do have do not have 4 or 5 people in a class cause frankly it pisses me off everytime it happens and it happens alot, its not the promoters fault but there simply too many of them now, ask certain promoters and you will find this to be very true....when it comes to pro events less is more, I suggest one or two money events a year per state, I dont mind traveling if the event is worth my time but right now armwrestlers are spread thin trying to support all these events, meanwhile you can hardly find events for legit novice pullers? I'm sure there is more but these are some major issues and I have been talking till I'm blue in the face and always get the same response.........insanity= doing the same things over and over and expecting a different outcome I appreciate the response David, but my questions were to Herman as I genuinely cared to hear what someone that is fairly new and seemingly unbiased has to say However, I will address 2 things that you have stated: FACT - I have NEVER said this "Fact Karen and Leonard have both stated numerous times that taking away the name Nationals from their events would cost them sponsers and probably entrees both of which equal $$$$$" because it is completely and totally not true. If you were indeed and in fact so concerned about events being scheduled the exact same day as others David, you would have never scheduled the event in Nashville the same time as Florida State - a long standing event that is always the 1st or 2nd weekend in December and has been for 15 YEARS! And yes, people that go to the FL event also go to the TN event which makes them choose.
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Post by travisrobinson on Feb 7, 2012 6:51:34 GMT -5
I hear only what i want to hear!...i will use all your words against you to make me seem smarter than you..i have a close friend who graduated from high school so i know what im talking about..Karen we must stomp out all who oppose us if we are to reign for another 100 years!!!..and we will start with Davey O...he post from his phone and moves around alot,so its hard to track him down,but im closing in !!!!!!..i hope you get this PM...........oh wait........dammit jus kidding Davey
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Post by Mike West on Feb 7, 2012 7:20:13 GMT -5
Herman, you are fairly new to the sport and should have a newer perspective than some, so would you please be specific based on your experience What events are "incapable" of filling classes and why are they "incapable"? What events allow 10 year veterans to pull novice/amateur? Who are these 10 year veterans? What are the organization's rules regarding novice/amateur? What events are scheduled on the same day? And how would you propose this does not happen? This topic has come under discussion lately and I would like to hear your thoughts on how it could stop? We all know that at times venues do dictate dates, as do sponsors but mostly it's not for these reasons that events are scheduled the same day. What events give out National titles that do not have National level competitors? You guys like to play these games... 1. XAC Tournament 11/12/11 sanctioned by AAA I consider the promotion for this tournament lazy. I know I don't know everything that was done to advertise this tournament, but there wasn't an attempt to create any hype for this tournament. 2 people in the 220s Left Class 4(not sure) in the 220s Right Class Supers was only slightly better because Colby and I both pulled up. I don't believe any 10 year veterans pulled novice, but Bruce pulled novice, and he has a win on Lee Browning. 2. Veterans pulling novice occurs everywhere. I've only pulled novice and amateur once. I've seen UAL and Amateur World Championship events with experienced guys in the novice/amateur. I won't name names. 3. Happens to often to discuss. 4. I believe AAA Nationals was in New York last. I don't believe a single top 10 guy was in the 198 class, but I could be wrong. I heard of people pulling UP a weight class to get a title. Overall, it looked like a non-ranked person had a pretty good chance of winning. What's worse? The rankings or AAA nationals? Maybe I should've gone to AAA Nationals... Herman, maybe you should have been at Unifieds also, 2 unranked guys finished 1&2 there also in the 98's
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Post by Chris Gangi on Feb 7, 2012 8:12:56 GMT -5
Gabe I do like what you are trying to do here. Just some things to think about. First the 6 regional directors will need to set up a bank account or keep under mattress. In a bank the cash will acquire interest and all interest paid by banks gets reported to the IRS so that may open up the 6 regional directors to a IRS investigation and possibly having to pay taxes on the money they have deposited in the account. 2nd all the armwrestlers and promotors in his/her region will have to mail the money to him/her and they will need to keep financial records plus some form that has the armwrestlers info such as: Name, State, Phone # or e-mail and the date memberships ends and either post it on a web site for all to see, which will results in 6 different web sites that everyone interested in will have to check or to have all 6 regional directors send their list to one person willing to take on the job of creating a site and maintaining it. 3rd If you think that any promotor big event or small tourney will turn away 10 or so pollers because that won't buy a membership you are mistaken. The promotor has invested their time and money into putting the event together and will want to fill classes. I like Bob Brown's idea about giving the money to Team USA to help attend World's but how is this to be decided, one lump sum to be divided up between the whole team or a set percentage given to each member of team USA. Just some of the thing that will have to be done if this moves forward. I created a place where armwrestlers could look for contacts in their area which took sometime to do with having to create 51 seperate pages with links to each other. I added a place on the Northeast Board and asked all armwrestlers to send me their info and I would post it, hard to believe that I have not received that many back with all the good thoughts about helping armwrestling. And just so everyong knows I wasn't paid to build this and I am not paid to keep it updated such as armwrestlers changing phone # and e-mail addresses often. Just something to consider. I was thinking the same about a promoter turning away people if they dont have a card....Unless someone is paying all my bills it wont happen and even then you risk the chance of losing Armwrestlers because of it...I am all for a Union for the promoter's to be a part of and give say 5-10 percent of total profit to help fund Team U.S.A to go to the Worlds....JMO
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Post by Gabe Moore on Feb 7, 2012 8:13:34 GMT -5
I don't want to throw away the baby with the bath water... I think there is something to this idea. A lot of truth in what Karen said "don't think the money would be spent in the way the pullers would want" if you leave it up to a select few. Using the net could benefit with a website where any member that has paid the $50 annual fee could vote on any new subject or idea for the direction of money to be spent for the sport. Voting should not be private/hidden. It should be out in the open. How each person votes on each ballot should be listed beside his/her name. This way any member has equal say so and anyone can count the votes. "I care not how people vote, I only care about who counts the vote." Stalin The organization should not restrict, block any puller from entering existing tournaments or any future tournaments organized by any promoter. Any voting should be about this organization and it's tournaments/events. Any member could present any idea. The idea should be scheduled to be voted in or out of a final voting schedule to put in order. Beauty of new ideas are that they could reverse an order that has shown not to benefit the sport/pullers. Another way to do this can be to separate it per tournament. If a promoter has/will have a tournament scheduled, he/she can put this format up for anyone who plans on attending the event and has paid the fee for membership for that event. The fee covers your entree fee. Ideas for the event can be brought up by any member. The idea gets voted on. These ideas could be how prize money (prize money also comes from the member/entry fee) will be awarded per weight class, placement, etc. If a tournament is obviously not gonna be successful, or beneficial because of not enough members pre-joined for the event, at least one month before the event date then all fees would be reimbursed back to each member. I agree that we could spark more interest in our sport by putting our own money down. I know, we do put our money down with flights, hotels, entry fees, etc. But, if we want to see changes then we need to be open to changes. Or, maybe not changes to our old ways but, be open and encourage new ideas/ways. If we spark interest some of those interested could be new potential sponsors. I'm for restricting who enters novice or amateur but, not open/pro. One thing unique which I think is great about our sport is anyone can enter most open classes. "We shouldn't restrict what we want to grow." That's what she's said.. Brent, thank you for the feedback. This is great. A website where we can go to pay our membership dues....an open voting forum to vote on where monies could be allocated. All good stuff. Very good. That's what we need. Those are the kind of responses we need in order to move forward. Let's move past posts that put Karen, Denise and Leonard in a position where they need to defend their dedication to the sport. I believe their intentions are good....and hope that they can see, from this thread of posts, that a new direction might need to be considered. I haven't been in the sport long enough to know all the "ins and outs"...however, don't think I need to know. I know where we can go tomorrow. We know we can change the current situation. I'll sit down this afternoon and take notes on all the posts. From that, I'll summarize where it seems we can focus our efforts. Maybe I can compile some sort of poll to vote on... Keep it positive. Focus on where we can go, not where we've been. Focus on how we can change, not what we haven't changed. It'll be slow, but I'm sure we can do it.
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Post by Gabe Moore on Feb 7, 2012 8:49:10 GMT -5
In addition to my last post, this "pro card" idea would also ensure an accurate, defined ranking system. As of today, any "Joe Blow" can walk in off the street, enter the open/pro, and win. Then what? If "Joe" has never pulled in a tourney, shows up out of nowhere, then wins, how do we rank him?
A minimum expectation should be required in order to enter those classes. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by "VENGEANCE" -David Rivera- on Feb 7, 2012 9:01:53 GMT -5
Yo herman, sup gabe good idea. Me and Karen played farmville back in the day just sayin. Peace.
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Post by Bob Brown on Feb 7, 2012 9:16:52 GMT -5
This or any sport can not grow without money. Any idea brought forth to grow money should be explored and tried. I had given basically the same idea to have an USAF membership. I was thinking it could raise about $25k. I thought all money should go to TEAM USA to help off set costs.
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Post by Jerry Herron on Feb 7, 2012 9:34:58 GMT -5
Bob i like ur idea and Gabe the idea of getting a card when u earn it also sticks with me like a few others have said anyone in the worLd can pull open/pro classes it should not be that easy to move up in this sport for one it causes some people to get hurt due to not being on that level .i would be up to getting a card if it will seperate the open class from the novice/am.
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 7, 2012 9:52:38 GMT -5
Guys, the idea is get people OUT of the Novice classes. Not keep them out of the Opens. The Novice class only exists to give people a place to learn the sport safely without having to compete against people who can hurt them.
Everyone seems to be concerned with prestige. Well, I get it. But let's be honest about the reality of the sport. Nobody outside this sport even knows it exists. Trying to make the Pro classes more exclusive does not in any way promote the sport to outsiders. Nobody knows about us, period. That is the problem. The sport must grow. You do not grow by limiting participation or by continuing to milk more money out of the small handful of people who are already paying for the sport to exist in the first place, ie the competitors.
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Post by Kenny Flynn on Feb 7, 2012 9:59:34 GMT -5
Very interesting thread, I understand how this topic could be offensive to some , I don't think that's the intent of people supporting a change, to me it's obvious something's wrong when most of this countries legends/elite have no desire to compete in our nationals or worlds. When was the last time team USA won a world team title? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) Is this because we can't compete ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) I don't think so. IMO this single reason , should make ALL of us interested in some type of change!!!!!!!
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 7, 2012 10:04:17 GMT -5
Everyone wants to turn armwrestling into High School Football, because that is their idea of what an established sport is. But you can model this sport after any other sport you want to, and it won't get one single sponsor involved. The organization of the sport isn't the issue and never has been.
The sport must become marketable. To do that, it must become watchable.
Making people jump through more hoops will do absolutely nothing to satisfy this need. If I'm wrong, I'd love to hear why. Pepsi is not holding back support because our National Champs didn't qualify at some Regional event. Nike is not holding back sponsorship because just anyone can enter a tournament.
If your desire is to bureaucratize the sport into something you can relate to, then just say it. But don't confuse that desire with the idea that bureaucratizing it will gain outside recognition. What it will do is choke the life out of a sport that has effectively been on life support for its entire existance.
When you get a sponsor on the line that tells you, "We'd give you a million dollars if we can be the sole supplier of competition sportswear, but we need you to do / change 'X'.." THAT'S when you put some kind of stipulation on things so that you can satisfy "X" to the sponsor. But trying to do anything of the sort before then is pretty silly.
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