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Post by Derek Smith on Feb 6, 2012 20:39:26 GMT -5
Derek, is a PRO card gonna make you a better armwrestler? Who cares if you have a card to prove you are a Pro armwrestler, how about showing them your accomplishments. I could buy a PBA card for bowling also, does it mean I can win on tour? No i just feel that if you had to EARN one then that would be an accomplishment itself. If i had to win 3 events to get a 'pro' card then an obvious short term goal for any new guy in the sport would be to win 3 events and once you do all the work to accomplish that goal then $50 wouldnt even phase you. I feel that just having a physical card on me (that i really had to earn) would just help legitimize the sport that much more. When i am spending hours talking to people trying to convince them to come try out AW and they ask what i have to show for it (i wouldnt carry my trophies and medals around) and i would show them my 'Certified Professional Arm Wrestler' card it would only convince them that much more to want to check it out. I always feel its the little things that get people hooked to something, i can honestly tell you i wouldnt be into this sport if it werent for a simple look in Ethan Fritsche's eyes that showed he didnt think i would stick with it, after i told him i wanted to AW competitively. I am only talking about this one aspect of having the card, i have not even commented on the deep politics of it. I have been playing sports all my life and am used to being active often. its tough to remind myself that i am an athlete working everyday for an event that is gonna happen in 5 months. So i guess this card would give me peace of mind also. I guess i am shallow and into material items.
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 6, 2012 20:44:54 GMT -5
I like the Pro Card for other reasons. It's the simple solution to the Novice / Pro argument. Instead of forcing people out of the Novice, they get to feel like crap because they don't have a Pro Card. But I'm not going to send somebody fifty bucks for one. I'll pay 10 bucks for the materials and processing to make the card though. Materials cost money and I don't expect people to work for free.
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Post by Bill Cox on Feb 6, 2012 21:12:28 GMT -5
Gabe I do like what you are trying to do here. Just some things to think about. First the 6 regional directors will need to set up a bank account or keep under mattress. In a bank the cash will acquire interest and all interest paid by banks gets reported to the IRS so that may open up the 6 regional directors to a IRS investigation and possibly having to pay taxes on the money they have deposited in the account. 2nd all the armwrestlers and promotors in his/her region will have to mail the money to him/her and they will need to keep financial records plus some form that has the armwrestlers info such as: Name, State, Phone # or e-mail and the date memberships ends and either post it on a web site for all to see, which will results in 6 different web sites that everyone interested in will have to check or to have all 6 regional directors send their list to one person willing to take on the job of creating a site and maintaining it. 3rd If you think that any promotor big event or small tourney will turn away 10 or so pollers because that won't buy a membership you are mistaken. The promotor has invested their time and money into putting the event together and will want to fill classes. I like Bob Brown's idea about giving the money to Team USA to help attend World's but how is this to be decided, one lump sum to be divided up between the whole team or a set percentage given to each member of team USA. Just some of the thing that will have to be done if this moves forward. I created a place where armwrestlers could look for contacts in their area which took sometime to do with having to create 51 seperate pages with links to each other. I added a place on the Northeast Board and asked all armwrestlers to send me their info and I would post it, hard to believe that I have not received that many back with all the good thoughts about helping armwrestling. And just so everyong knows I wasn't paid to build this and I am not paid to keep it updated such as armwrestlers changing phone # and e-mail addresses often. Just something to consider.
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Post by travisrobinson on Feb 6, 2012 21:32:06 GMT -5
Derek, is a PRO card gonna make you a better armwrestler? Who cares if you have a card to prove you are a Pro armwrestler, how about showing them your accomplishments. I could buy a PBA card for bowling also, does it mean I can win on tour? No i just feel that if you had to EARN one then that would be an accomplishment itself. If i had to win 3 events to get a 'pro' card then an obvious short term goal for any new guy in the sport would be to win 3 events and once you do all the work to accomplish that goal then $50 wouldnt even phase you. I feel that just having a physical card on me (that i really had to earn) would just help legitimize the sport that much more. When i am spending hours talking to people trying to convince them to come try out AW and they ask what i have to show for it (i wouldnt carry my trophies and medals around) and i would show them my 'Certified Professional Arm Wrestler' card it would only convince them that much more to want to check it out. I always feel its the little things that get people hooked to something, i can honestly tell you i wouldnt be into this sport if it werent for a simple look in Ethan Fritsche's eyes that showed he didnt think i would stick with it, after i told him i wanted to AW competitively. I am only talking about this one aspect of having the card, i have not even commented on the deep politics of it. I have been playing sports all my life and am used to being active often. its tough to remind myself that i am an athlete working everyday for an event that is gonna happen in 5 months. So i guess this card would give me peace of mind also. I guess i am shallow and into material items. ...best post youve had so far!!!..your stock jus went up in my book Derek..way to man up and be honest!!!..i think its great you want a pro card..i would much rather have a pro card to show people who dont know much about armw than going around wearing an arm warmer and people who dont know anything about armw say what the hell is that guy wearing!!!..JMO!
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Post by Karen Bean on Feb 6, 2012 21:43:40 GMT -5
David, contrary to what you believe, ALL events benefit our sport! As for having 3 Nationals being because it's beneficial dollar wise to promoters - you're saying then that the AAA, USAA and the USAF were formed strictly for money? And you know this to be fact? How? You seem to be one of very very few David that advocate boycotting. How very sad and shallow on your part. Many an event has been around long before you were even born with promoters that have supplied their own money, sweat, and backbone yet you come along with your vast knowledge and experience and want boycotts. Yes, that's the answer in building our sport - be completely blind to who has given a damn about this sport and what they've done for it. Makes good sense to me. A majority vote? How David do you propose to achieve a majority vote when all of your members won't ever be in the same place at the same time in order to cast a vote? Or do you plan to spend money to send out ballots multiple times per year to allow those paying members to vote? Also David bear in mind - the USAF board members are only there for ONE event per year! Pretty hard to make life altering decisions when you hold one event per year and it follows the same rulings as the world body. I do not agree on the point that "ALL events benefit our sport." Events that are incapable of filling out classes do not benefit the sport. Events that allow 10 year veterans to pull novice and amateur classes do not benefit the sport. Events scheduled on the same day splitting competition do not benefit the sport. Events that give out a national title without national level competition do not benefit the sport. I'm sure we could go on and on... Herman, you are fairly new to the sport and should have a newer perspective than some, so would you please be specific based on your experience What events are "incapable" of filling classes and why are they "incapable"? What events allow 10 year veterans to pull novice/amateur? Who are these 10 year veterans? What are the organization's rules regarding novice/amateur? What events are scheduled on the same day? And how would you propose this does not happen? This topic has come under discussion lately and I would like to hear your thoughts on how it could stop? We all know that at times venues do dictate dates, as do sponsors but mostly it's not for these reasons that events are scheduled the same day. What events give out National titles that do not have National level competitors?
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Post by Karen Bean on Feb 6, 2012 21:45:34 GMT -5
I'm with Mike West. (WONDERFUL post, Mike.) The observation I would like to make at this point is that everyone is discussing solutions when the challenges have not been defined. Sure, people have stated what the problems are 'in their opinion' but there is no actual definition of the objective. So far it is pie in sky, second or third hand information, and a complete and total lack of historical perspective. Before any sane person would put money in an envelope and send it to an as-yet fictitious entity: 1. Define the objective. (Define EACH objective separately) How do you know other people even agree with the end-result you have in mind? That is where you need to begin if you want buy-in. If I can give you some feedback based on what I'm reading in the last bunch of threads, they all have a common theme: Let's charge people money for something that is not defined. Let's increase the amount of bureaucracy. Let's limit participation unless the first two are met. How about some due diligence first... What is the project? What is the scope? Who are the stakeholders? (and why these people?) Can we see the project charter so that everyone can decide if this is a project they want to be a part of or buy into? For my part, I only care about a project if it addresses the primary issue: Outside money. How do we get somebody to finance this sport other than the competitors? THE ARMWRESTLERS ARE THE PRODUCT. NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE. The WAF board is exactly what you guys are discussing. And in my opinion they are the problem more often than they are the solution. The WAF does what is easy for the WAF. Not what is good for the sport. Not what is good for the armwrestler. I hate unions. I hate bureaucracy. I will support neither. Fabulous post John! As always! But, I agree with Mike - your friend list just got shorter as did the rope they'll use on you ;D
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Post by travisrobinson on Feb 6, 2012 21:53:55 GMT -5
Karen, Herman is koo koo for coa coa puffs!!!
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Post by David Owens on Feb 6, 2012 22:40:56 GMT -5
It can work if done right. same thing in fighting,or dirtbike racing you have to have a pro card to be in the pro class. And it could be beneficial to AW as a whole as well. Ryan, and how much money do these events (fighting, dirt biking, etc) pay out in prizes? As an armwrestler and promoter I've heard complaints over the years about entry fees being to high, or to much for the amount of prize money given. I also remember all the complaints when AAA charged a "Membership Fee" which covered your quarterly magazine, so now it's a great idea to start charging "Membership Fees or Union dues" to pullers to compete. Just in case you folks haven't noticed, attendance at events everywhere have been down for the last couple years, the economy is hurting the sport, and you wanna start charging pullers even more just to compete Derek, is a PRO card gonna make you a better armwrestler? Who cares if you have a card to prove you are a Pro armwrestler, how about showing them your accomplishments. I could buy a PBA card for bowling also, does it mean I can win on tour? I was a union member for 22 years, I want NO part of another union, $$$ corrupts people, money isn't the reason armwrestling is not in the Olympics, and when that is figured out then where would all these dues go? Have you guys actually set down and thought about all the things it would take to do this "Union" you want, or maybe some of you haven't been around long enough to realize that many of the brainstorm ideas that you have had have already been done or tried, and that when someone that has "been there done that" tries to explain it to you you think they are trying to keep the sport from advancing, or they are just in it for the money And if these promoters are in it for all the money, don't you think that they would also want the sport to grow? (more $$$$) Simply amazing at some of the stuff you see on message boards these days they want the sport to grow Mike, but only in its current form, they do not want to lose any control they currently have. Nobody said they were just in it for the money, you guys keep twisting words to make them whatever you want most can read through that.
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Post by Gabe Moore on Feb 6, 2012 22:45:46 GMT -5
John, excellent stuff. I'm a fan of your thoughts. I'm unsure of how we need to approach this, but am confident it'll work.
For those of you who do not know me....I'm an extremely out of the box thinker....just because I mention "6 regional directors" doesn't mean its set in stone....its solely a suggestion. We can make this work. WE have plenty of talent among our community to ensure the success.
Here is my response to John's questions;
Before any sane person would put money in an envelope and send it to an as-yet fictitious entity:
1. Define the objective. (Define EACH objective separately)
How do you know other people even agree with the end-result you have in mind? That is where you need to begin if you want buy-in. The end result, initially, would be to collect enough money for the $50k Olympic requirement. Each year thereafter, the leaders of our organization would discuss where the monies would be allocated. Advertising, membership cards, coordinating events at venues, top-10 travel expenses, drug testing, etc. The end-result would be a financially secure organization with a ton of potential. What is the vision of our organization? Where do we want to be in 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Is there a president or commissioner of our sport?
If I can give you some feedback based on what I'm reading in the last bunch of threads, they all have a common theme: Let's charge people money for something that is not defined. Let's increase the amount of bureaucracy. Let's limit participation unless the first two are met.
Ok, after reading the thread, I'll agree. It seems we haven't defined it...maybe because some were focused on who's right/wrong, rather than strategically thinking about defining an outcome. I believe we can make a $50 pro card work. Can we get the spark plugs firing on one cylinder? It's possible. I'm unsure of who can actually get it going. My initial (out of box) thought would be to recruit from within...post openings within the armwrestling world for accountants, lawyers, book keepers, subject matter experts on whatever we need. How do we choose? Maybe its an interview with _______ organization. I don't have the answer. But, I'll sure has heck come up with ideas.
How about some due diligence first...
What is the project? What is the scope? Who are the stakeholders? (and why these people?) Can we see the project charter so that everyone can decide if this is a project they want to be a part of or buy into?
Once we meet our initial $50k goal, we'd need direction for the annual monies collected. I think (out of box) we could actually pay people a salary to organize tournaments, advertising, rankings, etc. Again, just a suggestion. I don't need a job......just a suggestion.
For my part, I only care about a project if it addresses the primary issue: Outside money. How do we get somebody to finance this sport other than the competitors?
We can advertise tournaments and promote top ranked competitors. Who knows where this can take us. I know we could organize a vision, and succeed. We just need to think differently.
There isn't a black/white on my suggestions. I'm living in the gray area.....as we all should, at this point. Politically, I'm conservative, therefore, do not believe in red tape and control. However, I believe in structure, growth and success...and, of course profit.
I think the next step would be to take a poll on this board. If successful, then, we may want to take the next step. If not, then we can clean the chalkboard and start over. Something can be accomplished to ensure the success, financially, of armwrestling.
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Post by David Owens on Feb 6, 2012 23:04:37 GMT -5
I do not agree on the point that "ALL events benefit our sport." Events that are incapable of filling out classes do not benefit the sport. Events that allow 10 year veterans to pull novice and amateur classes do not benefit the sport. Events scheduled on the same day splitting competition do not benefit the sport. Events that give out a national title without national level competition do not benefit the sport. I'm sure we could go on and on... Herman, you are fairly new to the sport and should have a newer perspective than some, so would you please be specific based on your experience What events are "incapable" of filling classes and why are they "incapable"? What events allow 10 year veterans to pull novice/amateur? Who are these 10 year veterans? What are the organization's rules regarding novice/amateur? What events are scheduled on the same day? And how would you propose this does not happen? This topic has come under discussion lately and I would like to hear your thoughts on how it could stop? We all know that at times venues do dictate dates, as do sponsors but mostly it's not for these reasons that events are scheduled the same day. What events give out National titles that do not have National level competitors? yes Herman spell it out so we can pick your posts apart since we have been around longer than you we all know the problems are there it has been spelled out a million times on a million threads but because I love to argue with Karen and I care about the progress of the sport I will do it again 3 nationals - it doesnt matter the level of the competetion, it is silly to have three nationals in a sport and we look that way to the rest of the world. Fact Karen and Leonard have both stated numerous times that taking away the name Nationals from their events would cost them sponsers and probably entrees both of which equal $$$$$ NOW in their defense I'm not saying its because they are personaly cashing in on these events although I have my reservations, what I am saying is that they believe having a event with a good turnout or better prizes than most is more important than the integrity of our titles in the US. maybe they are right I do not share their belief, I think they could change the name and still have great events but thats just my honest opinion class clarification- its a common topic that is brought up over and over and the the question has been posed would you try to come to an agreement with other promoters on clarifying what is novice ,amateur, open, pro? would you conform to one standard ruling for the greater good of the sport?.....most common answer, NO and NO "our way works for us" you can armtv it and leonard spells it out, I have been over it in pms with Karen and got the exact same answer.....nope wouldnt even consider it rules - now I understand there have been slight variations to rules in certain orgs, but lets just settle on a set and train to those rules, if my shoulder crosses centerline in waf rules its a foul, but under AAA rules I can get in my opponents lap(calm down travis) as long as my elbow is on the pad and im holding onto the peg, just an example but its killing our guys at worlds and even at unifieds because many people are not aware of the rules .....I DONT CARE WHOS RULES ARE RIGHT, just pick one and lets stick to it toe stepping - FACT there are too many tournaments in the US too close togather aimed at the same group of pullers, I am all for more and more events but we need to limit the number of pro or cash events so the ones we do have do not have 4 or 5 people in a class cause frankly it pisses me off everytime it happens and it happens alot, its not the promoters fault but there simply too many of them now, ask certain promoters and you will find this to be very true....when it comes to pro events less is more, I suggest one or two money events a year per state, I dont mind traveling if the event is worth my time but right now armwrestlers are spread thin trying to support all these events, meanwhile you can hardly find events for legit novice pullers? I'm sure there is more but these are some major issues and I have been talking till I'm blue in the face and always get the same response.........insanity= doing the same things over and over and expecting a different outcome
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Post by Mike West on Feb 6, 2012 23:33:42 GMT -5
Ryan, and how much money do these events (fighting, dirt biking, etc) pay out in prizes? As an armwrestler and promoter I've heard complaints over the years about entry fees being to high, or to much for the amount of prize money given. I also remember all the complaints when AAA charged a "Membership Fee" which covered your quarterly magazine, so now it's a great idea to start charging "Membership Fees or Union dues" to pullers to compete. Just in case you folks haven't noticed, attendance at events everywhere have been down for the last couple years, the economy is hurting the sport, and you wanna start charging pullers even more just to compete Derek, is a PRO card gonna make you a better armwrestler? Who cares if you have a card to prove you are a Pro armwrestler, how about showing them your accomplishments. I could buy a PBA card for bowling also, does it mean I can win on tour? I was a union member for 22 years, I want NO part of another union, $$$ corrupts people, money isn't the reason armwrestling is not in the Olympics, and when that is figured out then where would all these dues go? Have you guys actually set down and thought about all the things it would take to do this "Union" you want, or maybe some of you haven't been around long enough to realize that many of the brainstorm ideas that you have had have already been done or tried, and that when someone that has "been there done that" tries to explain it to you you think they are trying to keep the sport from advancing, or they are just in it for the money And if these promoters are in it for all the money, don't you think that they would also want the sport to grow? (more $$$$) Simply amazing at some of the stuff you see on message boards these days they want the sport to grow Mike, but only in its current form, they do not want to lose any control they currently have. Nobody said they were just in it for the money, you guys keep twisting words to make them whatever you want most can read through that. What do you mean you guys are putting words in your mouth, did you not just post this? Fact Karen and Leonard have both stated numerous times that taking away the name Nationals from their events would coat them sponsers and probably entrees both of which equal $$$$$ NOW in their defense I'm not saying its because they are personaly cashing in on these events although I have my reservationsIt's those kind of post that says exactly what I said you say. And again for a little history lesson (although you don't care about the history of this sport) AAA was calling it a National Championship long better either of the other 2 Org. started, it was THE Nationals. I don't believe I've seen anywhere on this board where Karen has said that they don't want to change their Nationals to another name because of sponsors, it's been because of the history of the tournament, and it was here first so why should they change it.
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Post by Brent Norris on Feb 6, 2012 23:46:04 GMT -5
I don't want to throw away the baby with the bath water... I think there is something to this idea. A lot of truth in what Karen said "don't think the money would be spent in the way the pullers would want" if you leave it up to a select few. Using the net could benefit with a website where any member that has paid the $50 annual fee could vote on any new subject or idea for the direction of money to be spent for the sport. Voting should not be private/hidden. It should be out in the open. How each person votes on each ballot should be listed beside his/her name. This way any member has equal say so and anyone can count the votes. "I care not how people vote, I only care about who counts the vote." Stalin The organization should not restrict, block any puller from entering existing tournaments or any future tournaments organized by any promoter. Any voting should be about this organization and it's tournaments/events. Any member could present any idea. The idea should be scheduled to be voted in or out of a final voting schedule to put in order. Beauty of new ideas are that they could reverse an order that has shown not to benefit the sport/pullers. Another way to do this can be to separate it per tournament. If a promoter has/will have a tournament scheduled, he/she can put this format up for anyone who plans on attending the event and has paid the fee for membership for that event. The fee covers your entree fee. Ideas for the event can be brought up by any member. The idea gets voted on. These ideas could be how prize money (prize money also comes from the member/entry fee) will be awarded per weight class, placement, etc. If a tournament is obviously not gonna be successful, or beneficial because of not enough members pre-joined for the event, at least one month before the event date then all fees would be reimbursed back to each member. I agree that we could spark more interest in our sport by putting our own money down. I know, we do put our money down with flights, hotels, entry fees, etc. But, if we want to see changes then we need to be open to changes. Or, maybe not changes to our old ways but, be open and encourage new ideas/ways. If we spark interest some of those interested could be new potential sponsors. I'm for restricting who enters novice or amateur but, not open/pro. One thing unique which I think is great about our sport is anyone can enter most open classes. "We shouldn't restrict what we want to grow." That's what she's said..
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Post by David Owens on Feb 6, 2012 23:50:50 GMT -5
they want the sport to grow Mike, but only in its current form, they do not want to lose any control they currently have. Nobody said they were just in it for the money, you guys keep twisting words to make them whatever you want most can read through that. What do you mean you guys are putting words in your mouth, did you not just post this? Fact Karen and Leonard have both stated numerous times that taking away the name Nationals from their events would coat them sponsers and probably entrees both of which equal $$$$$ NOW in their defense I'm not saying its because they are personaly cashing in on these events although I have my reservationsIt's those kind of post that says exactly what I said you say. And again for a little history lesson (although you don't care about the history of this sport) AAA was calling it a National Championship long better either of the other 2 Org. started, it was THE Nationals. I don't believe I've seen anywhere on this board where Karen has said that they don't want to change their Nationals to another name because of sponsors, it's been because of the history of the tournament, and it was here first so why should they change it. Yes I did mike, now let me show you the part of my quote you ar missing "Nobody said they were JUST in it for the money" Just is my country way of saying "only" or "soley" (spell) I know they love the sport, there is not enough money in it to be just in it for the money but that's what you said ......now reread my last post and you will see I even said they are in the belief than more cash or better prizes is a good enough reason to continue having watered down titles, and maybe that's why they are worried about the money....I'm am not in that belief and simply disagree.........hope that doesn't make me a bad guy, I don't think karens way of thinking makes her evil in any way, just a different set of priorities Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by David Owens on Feb 6, 2012 23:55:42 GMT -5
I don't want to throw away the baby with the bath water... I think there is something to this idea. A lot of truth in what Karen said "don't think the money would be spent in the way the pullers would want" if you leave it up to a select few. Using the net could benefit with a website where any member that has paid the $50 annual fee could vote on any new subject or idea for the direction of money to be spent for the sport. Voting should not be private/hidden. It should be out in the open. How each person votes on each ballot should be listed beside his/her name. This way any member has equal say so and anyone can count the votes. "I care not how people vote, I only care about who counts the vote." Stalin The organization should not restrict, block any puller from entering existing tournaments or any future tournaments organized by any promoter. Any voting should be about this organization and it's tournaments/events. Any member could present any idea. The idea should be scheduled to be voted in or out of a final voting schedule to put in order. Beauty of new ideas are that they could reverse an order that has shown not to benefit the sport/pullers. Another way to do this can be to separate it per tournament. If a promoter has/will have a tournament scheduled, he/she can put this format up for anyone who plans on attending the event and has paid the fee for membership for that event. The fee covers your entree fee. Ideas for the event can be brought up by any member. The idea gets voted on. These ideas could be how prize money (prize money also comes from the member/entry fee) will be awarded per weight class, placement, etc. If a tournament is obviously not gonna be successful, or beneficial because of not enough members pre-joined for the event, at least one month before the event date then all fees would be reimbursed back to each member. I agree that we could spark more interest in our sport by putting our own money down. I know, we do put our money down with flights, hotels, entry fees, etc. But, if we want to see changes then we need to be open to changes. Or, maybe not changes to our old ways but, be open and encourage new ideas/ways. If we spark interest some of those interested could be new potential sponsors. I'm for restricting who enters novice or amateur but, not open/pro. One thing unique which I think is great about our sport is anyone can enter most open classes. "We shouldn't restrict what we want to grow." That's what she's said.. Your right brent restrictions on open pros while they make sense in some ways will not work because the numbers simply aren't there especially with so many tournaments Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Herman Stevens
Gold Member
Team Bakersfield / Team Louisiana
Posts: 730
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Post by Herman Stevens on Feb 6, 2012 23:58:03 GMT -5
I do not agree on the point that "ALL events benefit our sport." Events that are incapable of filling out classes do not benefit the sport. Events that allow 10 year veterans to pull novice and amateur classes do not benefit the sport. Events scheduled on the same day splitting competition do not benefit the sport. Events that give out a national title without national level competition do not benefit the sport. I'm sure we could go on and on... Herman, you are fairly new to the sport and should have a newer perspective than some, so would you please be specific based on your experience What events are "incapable" of filling classes and why are they "incapable"? What events allow 10 year veterans to pull novice/amateur? Who are these 10 year veterans? What are the organization's rules regarding novice/amateur? What events are scheduled on the same day? And how would you propose this does not happen? This topic has come under discussion lately and I would like to hear your thoughts on how it could stop? We all know that at times venues do dictate dates, as do sponsors but mostly it's not for these reasons that events are scheduled the same day. What events give out National titles that do not have National level competitors? You guys like to play these games... 1. XAC Tournament 11/12/11 sanctioned by AAA I consider the promotion for this tournament lazy. I know I don't know everything that was done to advertise this tournament, but there wasn't an attempt to create any hype for this tournament. 2 people in the 220s Left Class 4(not sure) in the 220s Right Class Supers was only slightly better because Colby and I both pulled up. I don't believe any 10 year veterans pulled novice, but Bruce pulled novice, and he has a win on Lee Browning. 2. Veterans pulling novice occurs everywhere. I've only pulled novice and amateur once. I've seen UAL and Amateur World Championship events with experienced guys in the novice/amateur. I won't name names. 3. Happens to often to discuss. 4. I believe AAA Nationals was in New York last. I don't believe a single top 10 guy was in the 198 class, but I could be wrong. I heard of people pulling UP a weight class to get a title. Overall, it looked like a non-ranked person had a pretty good chance of winning. What's worse? The rankings or AAA nationals? Maybe I should've gone to AAA Nationals...
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