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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Jul 7, 2005 10:11:22 GMT -5
BTW: the use of "you" does NOT single out anyone specific, just to those that it applies to.
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Post by leonard on Jul 7, 2005 10:14:13 GMT -5
With match #5 if you watch it on Quick Time you can go frame by frame. In the slow motion portion, it clearly shows Ivakin's elbow coming off the pad in the begining of the match. Off the back and down to the table top, not a little off but major.  |
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Amedeo Goga
Silver Member
QUEENS, NEW YORK CITY
Posts: 268
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Post by Amedeo Goga on Jul 7, 2005 10:21:17 GMT -5
Can anyone tell me what was wrong with #5? Looks like John just lost trying something different. PAL...Professional Armwrestling League Didn't know Travis was an employee of PAL, being that he competed there only once... Does this make John or Mike Selearis an employee? Now if Travis is employeed by PAL, GREAT for him. What a GREAT concept, an ARMWRESTLER actually making REAL money besides MAYBE promoters from the very sport he competes in. BTW: Just my opinion, and we know what that means, Leonard and Denise do put on the best money meets . I will say it till I die... YOU PEOPLE CREATED THE MONSTER NOW DEAL WITH IT!!!!!! TRAVIS is who he is and was " CREATED" by the cameras and the promoters who "thought" his "antics" WERE "cute".. I guess there not "cute" anymore, when it applies to others. I hate to say it...LOL..: But you can like it or not but because of him and his antics, he has helped pushed this sport further then anyone else has....... HEY MR. BINNIE, YOU SPOKE LIKE A TRUE REPUBLICAN...NO FEAR AND PLENTY OF BA*LS !!! I AM VERY IMPRESSED YOU CAME OUT LIKE THAT... AND YES, EVERYONE SHOULD BE KNEELING DOWN IN FRONT OF TRAVIS "THE KING" BAGENT... IT'S EXACTLY LIKE MR. BINNIE SAID, IF IT WEREN'T FOR TRAVIS AND HIS ANTICS, OUR SPORT WOULD STILL BE WHERE JOHN BRZENK AND RON BATH HAVE BROUGHT IT, AND THAT IS, I AM SORRY TO SAY, BUT IT'S THE TRUTH, NOWHERE.... GIVE TRAVIS HIS DUE CREDIT, ALL THE TALK AND ATTENTION THAT ESPN AND FOX HAS BEEN CREATED BY HIM... I WILL STAND BEHIND TRAVIS ALL THE WAY, AND EVERYONE ELSE STANDS TO GAIN WITH THIS GUY... ALSO, NOBODY CAN TAKE AWAY WHAT GREAT LEGENDS AND ACCOMPLISHEMENTS JOHN AND RON HAVE DONE IN ARMWRESTLING, BUT WHAT I AM REFERRING TO IS TV COVERAGE AND MEDIA ATTENTION SO, TRAVIS, KEEP GOING ON WITH YOUR BAD SELF...THE SPORT DEFINATELY NEEDS AT LEAST 5 MORE CHAMPIONS LIKE YOU, WHO COULD ALSO BACK UP THEIR STATEMENT...LIKE THE KING DOES, TRAVIS BAGENT... |
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Jul 7, 2005 10:33:53 GMT -5
Amedeo: it is extremely unfair to make the statement about John and Ron...REMEMBER There WAS t.v. coverage back then, there WERE money tournements back then, AND there WAS ACTUALLY a MOVIE that was shown WORLDWIDE and still being shown.
AND John and Ron ARE apart of this "new" movement in the sport...
UMMMM..."Kneeling down in front of Travis"? What the H$LL is wrong woth you?
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Post by guy on Jul 7, 2005 10:41:30 GMT -5
Creating a Monster" Sounds like the old Green Blob that got out of control and went into the streets and everywhere
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Jul 7, 2005 11:19:24 GMT -5
Leonard: YEP..about Taras' elbow foul.
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Post by simon on Jul 7, 2005 18:00:12 GMT -5
Leonard was making a valid personal observation about Igor's perception that this camera process is the proper way to address elbow fouls. I am not sure how the rest of this nonsense is really applicable.
I am curious about Igor’s position on what exactly the camera’s are supposed to be doing, if they are purely for dispute resolution, well ok but I think that is a very slippery slope to go down, if the process is created to actually record and make calls on elbow fouls in place of one or both of the officials, I too would question the viability of this.
In my opinion no match should continue an instant longer than a decision rendering call would allow, much less the one that looks like a low slip and two minutes later they call an elbow foul and a win, how long before the slip/stop was the elbow foul? You can see in the tape that the official keeps looking off stage instead of watching the action on the table, I am not saying this idea is without merit but I would like to understand it better.
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Post by Igor Mazurenko on Jul 8, 2005 10:09:49 GMT -5
Hello Everyone,
The word 'employee' is by all means wrong, used here. Travis Bagent is not any employee of PAL. And the fact that he has such opinion about PAL is his personal impression. PAL is covering costs of travel, board & lodging for a competitor and not also gives money price for win, but also for loss. The PAL treats every competitor like a star. And one of such stars is Travis.
Using such system of approach towards the competitors PAL organizes fights and gives answer to the question: who is stronger. And PAL doesn't influence the score of the fights in any way.
John and Mike also fought in PAL and they were treated the same way. They have their own opinions about PAL, but this is their personal thing and they do not write about it, and PAL doesn't demand this. What is important for PAL is that competitors are satisfied with tournament and that they have positive impression after the event.
Thank you Travis for your opinion about PAL. For PAL you are priceless competitor. Every time we will have occasion to organize your fight with opponent equal to you and in date and on financial conditions fixed together, we will launch such event.
Maybe because such system of approach towards competitors (covering costs of travel, board & lodging, press conferences, television coverages, photo sessions, prize for win and loss) wasn't used before in our sport, it may seem strange for some. I am still training (although I have less and less time to do it) and I know that such approach towards competitor is needed and wanted. This system is also used in such respected sport like professional boxing. After all, armwrestling isn't worse than other sports, isn't it?
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Post by Igor Mazurenko on Jul 8, 2005 10:45:49 GMT -5
I would like to give short info about the refeering system with cameras. Two cameras are used. Both fighting elbows are guarded, cameras are put on both sides of the table, the view from the camera is controlled by two technical referees. Both elbows are shown on one monitor. The head referee at the table sets the competitors and gives command Ready!Go! and stops the fight if the technical ref spots the foul and informs him via the cordless communications. Then if the ref at the table has some doubts, the recorded movie from the cameras is rewinded and watched again. If he hasn't any doubts he gives the verdict.
Every decision of ref at the table has to be approved by the technical ref.
This system is still in the early-experiment stage. But what I know for sure is that this system will be used in PAL. Even if it will require to use four cameras, still the score of the fight will be based on inspecting the recorded material and not only on decision of ref at the table.
With cameras there is greater chance to notice the foul then by the ref at the table himself. Even minimal lifts off are spoted. Every major sport discipline uses the cameras, including classical wrestling. I have been at the Olimpics in Greece. I have seen how the ref on the mat gave decision, then the head ref of the fight called the mat ref, they examined recorded movie, then the head ref ordered the mat ref to change the verdict. This is professionalism.
I have to admit that there are still some mistakes made. Also fight of Taras and John wasn't free of them. But the system is constantly being developed and as it is in the early stage of exsistance it will be successively improved.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Jul 8, 2005 10:57:04 GMT -5
As far as the employee thing: I'm glad Igor came on and explained PAL to everyone.
Way to go Igor and PAL!!!!!
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Post by simon on Jul 8, 2005 15:08:48 GMT -5
Thank you Igor for the explanation it was quite well stated.
It seems as though, as it is designed, there should be an immediate stoppage of the match the moment a foul is seen which I think is very necessary, with the wireless communication it should not be too hard to have the off stage officials yell out “foul red” or “foul yellow” just in case there is a dual foul very closely together, so that seems quite good as well.
Do the athletes get to dispute calls that can require the official to review the tape? I could easily see some people really taking advantage of this situation.
Under this format I could see this working, now with a larger event it would be difficult and further all of the comments I have heard of coming from those responsible for TV coverage is that they want less fouls and stops and more pulling.
I wish you the best with this Igor.
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Post by leonard on Jul 8, 2005 19:59:47 GMT -5
I think that the system has major problems with it if you can miss the elbow in match #5 and still call minimal lift offs that can only be seen by the camera's. Not all sports are using the video to actually referee during the bout. In fact very few are using it except for protests and disputes and then with more than one camera on a elbow. I am also concerned by the rule that "Every decision of ref at the table has to be approved by the technical ref". I wish you the best of luck with this. If your video can miss what happened in match 5 then controversy will follow this system. Sometimes we try to fix something and the solution is worse than the original problem. There will not be a perfect officiated event whether we use humans or video. ;D
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Post by Chris Gangi on Jul 8, 2005 20:16:09 GMT -5
PAL is covering costs of travel, board & lodging for a competitor and not also gives money price for win, but also for loss. The PAL treats every competitor like a star. And one of such stars is Travis. this is what makes these matches so awesome and why no matter who you ask to pull they will be there. as far as the camera thing you still have a HUMAN watching the camera and as igor and leonard both have said it is not perfect and i agree it probably never will be perfect because as we all know humans are NOT perfect. TRUST ME I GET TOLD THIS ALL THE TIME...... ;D |
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Post by STEVE PHIPPS on Jul 9, 2005 13:05:18 GMT -5
Sometimes it just comes down to the person (ref)who is looking at the armwrestling. Do they really understand the elbow rule? To me, match #5 was a clear foul with the tip of his elbow coming off the back of the pad, as well as an inch or so of arm. Maybe the ref who was watching it thought that because his arm with still in contact with the pad and had not lifted off the pad, he was still OK. Stranger things have happened!  |
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Post by Willie Reagan on Jul 9, 2005 16:36:46 GMT -5
Thanx for the explanation Igor. I think it is great that the top pullers from around the world can be treated like the athletes that they are. Great job.
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