Where did God come from???

[enginterzi]

Ryan,i didnt write nothing against your words.i only wrote for people who think we are not created by GOD.im type of guy who likes to discuss about the religion as long as its in the borders of respect.

im a Muslim,i do not believe that Jesus is GOD,nor son of GOD,but a great messenger from HIM.about being a great guy,i dont count myself even as a good man.when i just raise my head and look at around to see people who just live to help others and do this only to please GOD,then its not possible for me to call myself good person.every man knows his own sins,and we must face them here on this earth to realise what we are doing wrong.because if we dont try to correct ourselves we will never find the right path by playing the good man.as Jesus has said,''NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE''.there s a great message in these words for one who wants to see the truth and live according to this truth.im ready to discuss about everything you would like to,as long as we keep the respect between us.

[Christopher Myers]

Ryan,
I know that we see things different theologicaly ,but I have great respect for your conviction if I did not I wouldn't bother engaging in debate. I want our debates to be friendly I have no malice for you at all and I am glad that you would take the time to study one of my most favorite passages for the good book. If I have irritated you it is not my intent. If you wish me to stay off your post I will. I also dont want to place the stumbling block that I always speak of. apologies if I have rubbed you the wrong way
Christopher Myers

[Ryan Thames]

Chris,
I dont want to fight when we discuss these things but one thing i want you to understand, is that it does truly offend me when you imply that i am stubborn and intollerant and not to be arrogant but that i dont know what i am talking about when it comes to god and the bible. I understand my capabilities to be wrong, and becuase of that i will not stand strong on something that is just simply my opinoin. Again not to be arrogant but i have been trying to live my life for god 100% for 10 years and have been trying to study the word for what it means not for what the general atmosphere of "good christian" people say it means. One of my favorite things to study and think on are our common phrases people use. These are generally phrases people use to get out of going to church and living there life for god for real.

Ex: When people ask me where god comes from yet they dont want to hear an answer they only want to try to stump me in my knowledge of theology.

Ex: when people tell me the bible cant possibly be understood becuase 20 people can read the same passage and get 20 interperetations. That statement is both true and false. If your interested in why i say that ill explain further.

Ex: "You dont have to go to church to believe in God"
That statement is also both true and false.

Ex: What makes a curse word a curse word.( that one is rather funny)

[Ryan Thames]

Engin,

Again i respect your words and i thank you for your openness to discuss this subject regardless of whether or not this is an armwrestling message board....

And it is my prayer that if you and i go into further discussion please to not get angry or offended with me.

I respect your religious status and i have studied enough to know the basics of why muslims believe what they believe. I would like to continue this conversation on a more serious level. Ive never really had a discussion with a real muslim before (that i can remember) i would like to better understand why you believe what you believe.

I would like to further this conversation by asking you you this. If Jesus was a good man and a messeger of God Why then does he call him self god and the son of god? would that not be blasphemy? The way i see it you have to either except him as god or deem him a liar and a false messenger, correct?


These are questions im not sure of what you believe.
Do you believe there is any significance in Jesus Crucifixion? Or What do you believe about that?And do you believe he was resurected?

With the utmost respect
Ryan

[enginterzi]

Ryan,my friend,dont be too sensitive about offending me.i can see your purpose and its good enough for me to trust your goodness.

i guess i really need to write everything to have you understand my belief.till 1997 i didnt know much about non of the religions,i was a Muslim because i was born in Turkey.in 97 i met a girl in US ,she was a Christian.i many times had been in her church just to know what Christians believe.a very good friend of mine and his family was taking me there to see what they do in there.they also provided a Turkish version of the Bible.my english wasnt good enough to understand all the teachings of the preacher.it was the first assembly of GOD type church.everybody always showed a great hospitality to myself that i still cant forget.i will always carry them in my heart.
this girl and i started to having feelings for eachother,but later on her mom told me that we could be together only if i become a Christian.i decided to study all 3 religions by forgetting my Muslim faith.because i wanted to be 100%objective.i hope i will not offend you but i have found over 300 inconsistants in Bible,and most of them were about important subjects.
every Muslim believes that GOD has sent many messengers and Books to guide us into the goodness.but in the history mankind had always decieved eachother for worldly benefits even sometimes by hiding the truth.for ex.,Torah should have been written by Moses,but you will read in it that,''when Moses died he was 120 years old and even till today no one knows where his grave is''.its written in the book that he supposed to write,which is not possible to my understanding.i believe that GOD gave him a book but i just doubt that what we have s the same book.please dont be offended,im just answering your question.

there are over 300 of them but i will come to Gospels and important ones in it.when Jesus(peace be upon him) came he was denied by the Jews,and accused by not being sent from GOD.after he his departure Christians were attacked by Jews in Israel.so they all had to leave from their land to preach in other lands.it wasnt so easy to have Greek ppl who had many gods of mitology,and romans that had thousands of gods of stone ,gold and silvers.they didnt even know GOD who is the CREATOR of universe.Paul was a murderer of Christians but he made other disciples to believe that he was touched by Jesus.they believed him but later on they have realised that he was giving up on many basic things of the religion just to please human beings.but assuredly it wasnt the way because GOD gave us all those rules for us to correct ourselves.we cant make our own rules.its like sending our kids to school and let them do whetever they would like to.so other disciples,who were with Jesus all those times,realised that Paul was following his own heart.and they finally left him.
at earlier years of Christianity had two different faiths in them.some were Unitarians who believed in one and only GOD who has no likeness with any one else.but some believed that GOD had 3 natures in Hým.so there was a big chaos till 325 in nicea emperor Constantin had decided to burn 270 different versions of Gospels and have only 4 of them that you are holding now,and also some letters of human beings.Trinity was formulated many years after Jesus,he had nothing to do with it.he was a man who never ate pork,he was curcimcised like others.but it was so hard to make roman emperor to have his.... get cut.so it wasnt so easy for them to establish Christianity.ans some like Paul had given up on law of GOD.but some said they couldnt please humans,because they were serving only GOD.Trinity also was formulated by zeus and his son hercules,son of god theorie.

one day i found a Bible with it's original language.it was Hebrew,Aramaic and Greek.the word that they used for Jesus 'lord' was also used for Abraham but translated as 'master'.its another mistery that Jesus had taught in Hebrew but original New Testament is in Greek.i have found a Gospel,its the Gospel of Barnabas.its found in a Catholic church in Italy.its around 300pages and tells me the answers of the mysteries.for ex.,in the Gospel there s an argument between Jesus and Jews because of his disciples didnt wash their hands before they start eating.and after the conversations between them there s an adding ''and by saying this Jesus made all the food clean''.but when i read the same story in Gospel of Barnabas i see that the story doesnt end like that.Jesus says the same exact things but at the end he says that when you decide to eat something that GOD has forbid,then this desire come from inside of you and makes you sin.so he tells that important is not exactly what you do,important is if what you do pleases GOD or not.

you also asked me if i believe in crucification,no i dont.and i can prove you this by inconsistants of the Gospels with eachother.if you just open the pages about it,you will see that there are many things that are different than eachother.one story says two other guys that died with him were bad ppl.one story says one of them were good n Jesus has told him that he was gonna be with him in paradise verily day.but we know that according to story Jesus didnt go to heaven on verily day.one story says Judas has hung himself after he threw the money away.but another story says he used the money and bought a field and fell down headlong.then Christian authorities had to formulate something with it because it didnt make sense.so they decided to put notes in Gospels and say that he fell down headlong by hanging himself in the field that he bought.but it still didnt make sense because he supposed to threw the money without using it.in one the Gospels Jesus tells to a woman to not to touch him after the resurraction because he hasnt been in heaven yet,at another Gospel Jesus tells one of his disciples to touch him from where he was injured just after resurraction.in one of the Gospels John the Baptise points Jesus as the sheep of GOD by knowing who he is,another Gospel says John sends his disciples while he was in prison,to ask Jesus if he s the that needed to come by not knowing who he is.im sorry Ryan,there are bunch to declare but i dont want you to think that im offending your faith.so lets finished it,because i can write forever.once again i apoligise if i did something wrong.take care brother

[Harold "Rattlesnake" Ryden]

Engin,
Hey brother, you said a few things and, man, you have done some research, but I dont think you see the whole picture of who Jesus actually was/is. Jesus did indeed tell the thief on the cross next to him that today, he will be with Him in Paradise, yet Jesus spent 3 days in hell. That alone backs up the trinity, because Jesus is God. The trinity is a touchy subject and very difficult to explain. I was once told its like an egg, you have your shell, your white, then your yolk...3 different things, yet it is still "an egg". God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, 3 different beings, yet "One God" You also siad Jesus never siad anything about the trinity, yes your right, but he said many things to back it up as he told the theif, The Bible also explains Jesus as "The Word"...In the beginning The Word was with God, The Word, "was God". In the book of Revalation, The Almighty God tells John he is the Alpha and the Omega correct? He says it three times as a matter of fact.

It states,
(Rev. 1:8)Almighty God says;
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
(Rev. 21:6) -God Speaking-
He said to me,"It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.....
(Rev. 22:12-16) Jesus is speaking here;
There is too much for me to type here but it states , "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End". These are statements from Jesus himself, because he goes on to add the he is the Offspring of David.

This to me proves that yet Jesus and God are 2 beings, they are still One God.

In Matthew 28:19
Therfore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the "name" (not names) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. 3 beings, one God

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.
verse 38
Jesus states; the Father is in me, and I in the Father.


On another note, Jesus speaks of a "narrow gate" that leads to heaven...

Matthew 7:13-14
(13) Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. (14)But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Luke 13:24
Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

My question was, how do I find this gate, where is this gate and how do I get through it.
Then I found this;

John 10:9 (Jesus says,)
"I" am the gate; whoever enters through "me" will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Jesus is that gate and is the only way to heaven, he even states it himself.

I respect your beliefs and your passion and your knowledge, you said a lot of things I enjoyed and will take with me the rest of my life, but I felt the Lord erging me to respond and share this with you Engin.

Its always nice seeing you Engin and I have enjoyed our conversations and hope to see you again soon and continue our freindship.


Your brother,


Harold Ryden

[enginterzi]

Harold,

you wrote all the verses without understanding my point.my point was that i can not have faith in a book with all those inconsistants.so wrote me verses that i dont believe its from GOD.because GOD s perfect and doesnt make mistakes.as i wrote before,these books were accepted in year 325,and 270 other versions were burnt.

[enginterzi]

people has done those corruptions to have worldly benefits.if you ask me i would say Jesus has never claim to be son of GOD.there are many verses in Gospels that calls Jesus as servant of GOD.and i believe that they were the uncorrupted original parts of Gospels.in one part he points his relationship with GOD as a relationship between a master and his servant.this s why he also wrote that NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE.

[enginterzi]

Jesus didnt only say that he was gonna be with him verily day.he said he will be with him in paradise verily day.they werent in paradise verily day according to the book.

[Harold "Rattlesnake" Ryden]

Your right Engin and I understand your view on it. I guess that is where our Faith comes into play. I have faith that this is the truth and the Lord has lead me to believe what I am reading is the truth. Just because of the history from what you read, doesnt make these Gospels untrue...

I also believe that all scripture is God breathed, so if it was one Gospel, or 270 Gospels... it was God breathed so therfore is the truth, may God have mercy on our souls if the Gospel he wanted us to read was burned which I truly cant believe God would allow... Otherwise his work would have been a waste of his time, He wants us to know the truth, therefore sent us the truth through his Son and it was documented for us to read... We could go back and forth and I do truly respect you Engin, Im not one for disputes but will share when the Lord tells me too.

Harold

[Ryan Thames]

Engin,

You have not offended me one bit I understand your position. I understand you question about moses death that is rather confusing but im sure there is an answer for it. That is how i look at the bible when there is something that isnt right there must be an answer, becuase im not god my reading it is fallible. Its possible that joshua may have finished the torah or he "revised" it, but i dont know ill look into it. I know that Back in the day (forgive im not as precise in my knowledge) Scholars, scribes, apostles, who ever it was im not sure ,had composed all the books of the bible and they had to decide wich books were inspired by god (god-breathed) there were books and letters that had no reference to the old testement i think. And that is why the catholic bible has more books in it than the protestant bible. the extra books in the apocrypha are not considered inspired. (i know im proly gonna get some lip for saying that)

As far as the trinity and unitarianism i did a lil bit of studying on that subject, I for one what i found in the book of genisis proves to me that there is a holy trinity. (whether there is or isnt i personally think it is irrelevant)

Genisis 26. And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27. So God created man in HIS own image, in the image of God created he HIM; male and female created he them.
28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Notice in verse 26 god said Let US make man in our image. Who was he talking to??? I used to think he was talkin to the angels. But i realized we are not created in the image of angels. So read further where it says in verse 27 So god created him in his own image.
both scriptures are pointing to a plural yet singular God.

Paul didnt abandon the Law to please man. if he did that do you think he wouldve given his life for it? Paul Who was one of the most educated pharisees knew the the law by heart he knew what it would take to have a right relationship with god through the sheding of blood. the bible declares there is no remishion of sin without the sheding of blood. and that is why they gave blood sacrifices of animals. Paul declares that jesus was the foretold son of god. wich was foretold in (almost) everybook of the old testament. So then jesus was the perfect sinless man the son of god Firstborn according to the law it required the firstborn to be a sacrifice to god for the remishion of sin and in this instance God sacrificed his son for our eternal sacrifice to make us holy and perfect through his blood. the law had been fulfilled in jesus christ paul didnt abandon it he understood that it was fulfilled. So that if we put our faith in the blood of christ-(the anointed one) we would then have eternal life and a right relationship with god. This had to happen as im sure your aware of the fall of man were becuase of our sin we were cut off from a relationship with god becuase he is holy cant comprimise his holiness. so he designed the sacrificial sysytem and foretold the coming of the savior in genesis 3 :15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel...... this was the first mentioning of jesus being born and of his crucifixion. as we know The seed of a person comes from the man unless she as a virgin gives birth then the seed of the woman (mary) bears fruit to a son (jesus) and through the crucifixion Jesus Bruised the head of the serpant and the serpant bruise the heal of the savior. Paul didnt abandon the law he understood that he himself could not be good enough to please god. Paul knew that without the shedding of the blood of jesus he was doomed to hell. and only the faith in that sacrifice could he have a true relationship with the father. He understood that he could be the best person in the world the most devout jew/muslim/christian in all that he does and it still wouldnt be enough to have a relationship with it was to go through gods law of the sacrifice wich was fullfilled in christ.

When jesus was crucified on the cross and told one man on the cross that he would be with him in paradise. he was talking about the place where people went when they died and had there faith in the blood of the sacrifice. i think another term for this place is also abrahams bossom this was not heaven that he was refering to, it was hell a comforted side of hell for the ones of faith (THIS IS NOT PURGATORY) before this time people couldnt enter heaven becuase they had not been redeemed by the blood of the savior. then jesus was resurected and ascended into heaven to go and prepare a place for us in heaven.

If you dont get offended neither will I

As far as Isaac and Ishmeal you believe ishmael was abrahams first born son, so do I. But accordin to the bible he was not the "promised son" God promised a son to abraham and sarah. Not Abraham and Hagar.

Here is a lil religous humor.
becuase your faith comes through ishmael and mine comes through isaac but both come through abraham.
I cannot call you brother but Cousin and friend.

Your Cousin in faith,
Ryan

[enginterzi]

i really would like to hear your opinions about the only a few inconsistants that i have mentioned.

the other thing that i dont understand with Christianity s that they all say GOD talks with them but they all go to different churches.and they all claim that their type of church is the one that pleases GOD.but if GOD s speaking with all of them,then why doesnt GOD keep them under same umbrella instead of letting them believe differently?

[CHRISTIAN BINNIE]

GOD? I'm a REAL Christian

[enginterzi]

im sorry but this s the problem.if there s something that doesnt make sense you say there must be an answer.there cant be an answer about saying that Moses wrote a book after he died.about Jesus saying paradise,he clearly says paradise and we cant just change it with our guesses to make it look ok.

[Ryan Thames]

I wasnt changing anything to make it look ok.

What i meant was if there is something that i dont understand that doesnt mean i should through it away but put it on a shelf and search for the answer.