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Post by Gabe Moore on Aug 18, 2012 21:44:55 GMT -5
This might be one of my favorite "off topic" and deep topics to discuss. I grew up Baptist. So, before anyone tries to consider me as an athiest, please hold your judgement. This is only an observation I've had throughout my short 34 years of life.
Who is God?
Let's first consider the never-ending pursuit of perfection, we, as humans have had throughout our entire existence. Think about it. We have created a perfect place to arrive(heaven) when we die. That is, only if we behave and do the best we can to walk the line of the perfect Jesus. We are in a constant pursuit of perfection. The never-ending search for a "drug" of which will kill cancer. Why? Only because we don't want to die of cancer. We want to die of "natural causes" or be thought of as someone who did not form a dreaded disease in our body(diabetes, lymphoma, heart disease, breast cancer, etc, etc, etc).
We (the majority of our human population) are in a constant search for what cannot be accomplished...the perfect life....the fountain of youth.
So, who is God?
Maybe, God is a state of mind. When someone says "look to God"....are they saying "search your thoughts and think rationally through your situation...reflect and become emotionally intelligent enough to decide your next move"....
Do we have the ability to reflect, internally, without someone ensuring us that "God" is the one we need to turn to when times get tough? Some people NEED religion and God to define there every move, thought, rationale. Some people(unfortunately) NEED religion to justify their actions(judgemental behavior, behind the scene behavior, glass house, etc).
Some people do not NEED religion to define their actions.
There are thousands of religions in this world....most of which have a "God" or a perfect being to which they adore and allow to lead their morals, ethics and values as a culture.
If we did not have religion, or a "God" to which we, as a world of thousands of cultures could reference to, as a moral or ethical backing, then crime would be of an extreme denominator.
Bottom line: If we were to sum up the defining quote for all religions in this world, it would reflect something like this:
"Live your life as true as you know to live it. When you die, will your mind be as clear as to say that you owe nothing, lied to no one, stole from no one and were as true a person as you knew you could be to everyone? And, if you did, could you reflect on your life as to doing everything in your will to make it better?"
If the answer is "yes", then you lived the life we, as a society, wants you to live. If the answer is "no", then shame on you.
There is so many angles on this subject...love it.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 19, 2012 2:20:40 GMT -5
The answer for each person to that question is "no"
Have you never lied? Have you never stolen anything?
Do you live the life you know to be right? Or do you fail even at that?
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 19, 2012 2:22:54 GMT -5
If you say you have failed..... Then shame is already upon you.
If you say you have not..... You lie and the truth is not in you. So shame upon you again.
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Post by Michael Wells on Aug 19, 2012 21:07:18 GMT -5
Life's journey of walking as Christ will not get anyone into heaven. Nothing we DO will get us in
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Aug 19, 2012 22:30:02 GMT -5
Just sayin': ;D  |
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 20, 2012 6:39:04 GMT -5
Haha.... I saw that the other day. Pretty funny for a blasphemous joke that will get worms to eat you alive and sun to scorch the earth. Lighting and thunder to strike beneath your feet and the judgement of the lorrrrrrrd to come down upon theeee!!!!!!
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Post by John Parton on Aug 20, 2012 14:20:51 GMT -5
Wow this is still going. I want to say this, if you love GOD you are going to love people, ALL people. The same one that saved me can save Bill Maher or anyone else and what good is it if we "Only love those who love us"! Food for thought and remember there is only one judge. We can take a stand against evil actions, but be careful to do it because you remember that Christ died to set that person free:)
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Post by John Wilson on Aug 20, 2012 18:40:02 GMT -5
There are thousands of religions in this world....most of which have a "God" or a perfect being to which they adore and allow to lead their morals, ethics and values as a culture. If we did not have religion, or a "God" to which we, as a world of thousands of cultures could reference to, as a moral or ethical backing, then crime would be of an extreme denominator. ^To me, this is key. Setting aside the question of " which God is the one true God?"- the question of is there a God is answered in Gabe's statement. Innate morality is a shared human trait. Why? If we are accidental collections of stardust, that at best would explain the how of human existance if you decided to believe such an explanation. But the death knell of this explanation is that it cannot address anything other than the mechanical combination of substances. From where would emotions, thoughts, sentience come from? Larger yet: from where does innate morality come from? Innate morality is completely and utterly at odds with self-preservation. It is diametrically opposed to Survival of the Fittest. Why do all human societies recognize morality and spirituality? The atheists would posit that it's a crutch. A crutch for what? From what? No, since the dawn of time Mankind has been aware of his innate morality that forces him to choose between what would make it easiest to survive and what is right to do. Man is born with a choice, and morality asks him to choose the difficult option. Nature apart from God would not, and cannot, instill morality because morality is opposed to natural survival. |
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Aug 21, 2012 15:47:10 GMT -5
Wow this is still going. I want to say this, if you love GOD you are going to love people, ALL people. The same one that saved me can save Bill Maher or anyone else and what good is it if we "Only love those who love us"! Food for thought and remember there is only one judge. We can take a stand against evil actions, but be careful to do it because you remember that Christ died to set that person free:) What if I HATE EVEREYONE...Do I then hate "GOD"? |
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Post by John Milne on Aug 21, 2012 16:47:42 GMT -5
John, I may be reading your post wrong but to sum it up it seems you are saying that "athiests" would not have morals. That we need "god" to have morals.
I consider myself both a good and (at times) bad person. I think for the most part I'm good but am capable of bad. I do not believe in anyone's god but my character as judged by most (I think) would be considered fairly moral. Even though I consider "morality" a bit of a joke, but for sake or argument please follow.
I'm good to my family, my friends, my workmates, animals, and most people around me. Don't get me wrong, I'm very aware that there are some who think I'm an azshole but I'm ok with that.
No one other than myself guides me, not god, allah or a whomever else people worship. It's just me and I haven't fallen into the abyss without spiritual guidance, I haven't gone on a crime spree, never raped or pillaged, just lived a fairly normal life by all accounts.
Am I understanding you wrong? Or do you think that without god the world would turn into a cesspool?
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Post by John Wilson on Aug 21, 2012 17:18:08 GMT -5
Yes, John. You understood me correctly. Innate morality comes from God as part of our creation. Notice I said, "God". Not religion.
You exibit in your life exactly what I am calling "innate morality". Morality is a part of our human existance. I say it comes from God and I explained why I believe this. You don't have to believe in anything- innate morality is a part of you as a human being. You still have to make a choice to follow it or not. Everyone does.
Certainly, all morality is not innate. Obviously there are any number of things we consider moral or immoral based on the society we live in, laws, etc. That is an external morality and it changes with the times, the laws, etc. 100 years ago, a woman would never consider going to the beach in a bikini. That's imposed morality, which is not what I'm talking about.
You know in your heart that murder is wrong. You know pedophilia is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Lying is wrong. Nobody had to pass a law or teach you that these things are wrong. These are universal truths, and this innate morality exists in you regardless of whether or not you are atheist, agnostic, or follow any form of religion.
We all break down morally from time to time. That's nature, and nature is part of us. Nature is our nature outside of our innate morality. And that is why I said that innate morality is at odd with nature, because it is.
Life would be very easy without morality. Well, it would be easy if it weren't for all the other immoral degenerates who would be out to kill us, rape our wives, take our children, and steal our food. Nature would compel us to do those heinous things because all of them would increase our own rates of survival. We would live just as any animal does. But we don't. Why? Because we have a sense of right and wrong. And that sense of right and wrong is remarkably similar across every group of humans since time began. There are exceptions, and those exceptions occurred when reason trumped morality.
So, where does innate morality come from if there is no creator? From Nature? Morality works against nature. We would be the only species on earth where nature put us at odds with our survival.
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Post by John Milne on Aug 21, 2012 17:48:52 GMT -5
ok, I understand you now.
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Post by Chris Gobby on Aug 21, 2012 18:14:46 GMT -5
The answer is.. The evolution of man and society (laws etc..). Man is constantly getting smarter. The evidence of this, is the gradual decrease of people believing in a magical, spiritual, all knowing creator residing in the sky who grants wishes to quarterbacks and ignores the plea's of 5000 starving children dying daily.
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Post by John Wilson on Aug 21, 2012 20:04:13 GMT -5
I'd love to believe that Man is getting smarter. I just don't see any evidence of it. There have always been agnostics and atheists. Is that number getting bigger? It is in most of the world. The decline of humanity and the increase in depravity follows that track pretty closely.
I do not believe that God is granting wishes to quarterbacks. And as for starving children that is mankind's creation. Ethiopa, for example. People aren't starving in Ethiopia because of a lack of food. They could leave the desert if they were allowed to. Those people are the victims of political genocide by their own government and it's been going on a long time. That is the act of people, not a lack of a creator.
Here again people dismiss a creator when they really have an issue with religion. The two are only superficially related. God is or is not. Religion is what people believe it is. Our belief does not create truth, nor does our lack of understanding disprove a creator.
I don't know why God allows children to starve or why people suffer. I have my theories, but that's a religious question. It has nothing at all to do with the question of a creator.
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Post by Chris Gobby on Aug 21, 2012 22:39:24 GMT -5
I don't think the intelligent atheist dismiss's a creator because they have an issue with religion. It's like saying they dismiss the Easter bunny because they don't like Easter. It's a dillusion based on a farce.
John, can you explain to me why millions (in the west) prey to their god, for health, wealth & happiness. All while impoverished families (in the east) continue to struggle despite their constant prayer. Does god prefer the priveleged? Does one religions god aid while another's ignores? Which religions god is the real one?.. Is it ignorance, selfishness, or hypocrisy?
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