|
|
Post by John Wilson on Aug 22, 2012 7:58:06 GMT -5
Wouldn't you agree that these are two different things?
Atheists dismiss the idea of a creator. However, the science of anything points toward a creator, not away from one. Whether you approach the problem through mathematical probability or thermodynamics, the idea of any system going from simple to complex does not have any support on a fundamental level. There are plenty of rationalizations, but there is no law or postulate that will support the notion. Intelligent design versus spontaneous construction is a purely rational problem to solve and has no need for religious interpretation. The actual math and science supports intelligent design, and even many atheist scientists admit they can't get around this conundrum.
Your second paragraph is a religious question, which is completely different from the first. The question is now about justice as it relates to a creator. Justice, or the perception of, has nothing at all to do with intelligent design. "Justice" is the idea of fairness. It does not prove or disprove anything. If, for the sake of argument, we say that there is a creator but this creator is unjust, that is a legitimate argument. But it's a religious debate based on our own ideas of justice versus God's actual motives.
Two people cannot debate God's justice until both agree that there is a God. And the canard from the atheist is typically "you can't disprove a negative." That's intellectual laziness. To prove, or at least support, that there is no God all one has to do is to explain how the universe was formed without one. So far nobody has been able to do that. And it only gets worse from there because now someone has to explain complex replication and sustainability with no external influence. Now we're not just stretching mathematical probability, we are breaking laws of physics.
|
|
|
|
Post by Michael Wells on Aug 22, 2012 17:03:42 GMT -5
Yeah, I was just about to say that. Lol
|
|
|
|
Post by Tero Lampikari on Aug 22, 2012 18:30:05 GMT -5
You are all wrong...just saying  ;D |
|
|
|
Post by John Wilson on Aug 22, 2012 18:49:11 GMT -5
LOL! It's been known to happen.
Now, God be praised, that to believing souls gives light in darkness, comfort in despair.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 22, 2012 20:11:58 GMT -5
Man is constantly getting smarter.... If there was a contest for comments that have no evidence to back it up on this thread.... This one wins. Hands down. The signs of intelligent life on earth is dwindling lol. I guess that's why we are looking for intelligence on mars. Cuz we have slap RAN OUT! Bahahaha |
|
|
|
Post by Chris Gobby on Aug 22, 2012 20:32:49 GMT -5
Throughout time, (over centuries) man has become smarter. At one time It was wide belief that the earth was flat.
You claim my comment lacks evidence? This whole thread (333 pages) is dedicated to an invisible, never seen magical entity who was fabricated by man to control the masses and cater to their weak, frail minds.
|
|
|
|
Post by John Byerley on Aug 22, 2012 20:52:16 GMT -5
Every post Chris is connecting God/Divine Presence/Creator - or whatever else you would call the being that could put the universe in motion - connecting that, and religion.
You don't have to be a Muslim, Christian, or Jew - to believe or disbelieve in God. Or to contemplate the existence of God.
My mind is anything but frail and weak - and I am more than capable of thinking on my own.
Its a weaker argument to simply say "there is no God" with the endless amount of space and knowledge we have yet to even explore or contemplate. We are small.
Stating there is no God, is no different than stating there is one, in the fact that it takes BELIEF to state such things. You can't prove either/or, but you can argue for or against based on theory, personal experiences, perception, or your own individual logic.
"Never seen magical entity fabricated by man" - statements like that are moot because it can easily be following by "maybe, maybe not."
Are there weak, frail minds who instead of researching their own life paths, simply follow and do as they are told? Yes. But really?!? We all know people who are capable of little more than waking up in the morning. There will always be sheep and shepherds.
Are there evil, greedy men that have used the idea of God, and/or religion to do evil things? Of course. But evil men do evil things without the idea of God and/or religion all the time. No matter what you call it, or what you try and name the reason, evil is evil. God nor pure religious attributes should be held to blame for an individual or group's actions.
If you can't differentiate the wisdom from the fool's gold in any text or message or argument - then you have a long ways to go and can only blame yourself in the end for following the wrong path. Life should be about learning, experiencing, enlightenment - morality is a VERY necessary thing for the majority to be able to experience long, fulfilling lives. If everyone were an Anarchist - and Chaos was the religion of the day, you would be quick to see why doing things of a moral nature are beneficial to everyone. I am not tying God to morality - but I am not untying him either. Like John has said - we do have this type of INNATE MORAL compass - that is antithetical to nature itself, to animals. Something makes us tick differently.
I wasn't here at the beginning and probably won't be at the end.
But the choice to thing and/or believe in something divine as the only way to explain the thing science cannot, and will not for the forseeable future, be able to explain - thats a rational choice.
I don't tie the sadness and the horrible things that happen in this life to something that I can't explain - all I know is man is pretty much in this thing together. If we all worked together there would be no starving or dying children, or wars, or famine's.
But thats a fantasy - why? Because GOOD is real. And EVIL is REAL. Where do those characteristics initially come from? I don't know, but I have my ideas - we are not simple beings. We are complex - too complex to fully yet understand, assuming we may be able to one day.
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 22, 2012 20:57:32 GMT -5
Throughout time, (over centuries) man has become smarter. At one time It was wide belief that the earth was flat. You claim my comment lacks evidence? This whole thread (333 pages) is dedicated to an invisible, never seen magical entity who was fabricated by man to control the masses and cater to their weak, frail minds. hmmm you don't say....... You do believe evolution right??? Then we are in fact getting dumber. At least that is one of the theories with evidence that our brains are shrinking. |
|
|
|
Post by michaelmeador on Aug 22, 2012 22:06:32 GMT -5
Fact,
This thread is stupid...
I really need to stop viewing the board by using the last 25 post's option...
|
|
|
|
Post by John Wilson on Aug 23, 2012 7:00:42 GMT -5
It's very interesting that atheists get frustrated so easily when discussing God. Especially considering that clicking on this thread is completely voluntary in the first place. More still, atheists don't dismiss God at all. If this thread is any indication, it is atheists who are consumed by the idea of God. I can honestly say I've never met an atheist who was ambivolent about the topic. On the contrary, it's almost like touching a raw nerve. Why?
It is a human weakness to be offended or even disturbed by an opposing viewpoint. Why? Anyone sure of their own beliefs would welcome a chance to explain them. Attacking an opposing viewpiont is another weakness. A viewpoint with merit can stand on its own, it doesn't need to be compared to another viewpoint to make it sound more reasonable. An idea stands on its own or it doesn't.
|
|
|
|
Post by michaelmeador on Aug 23, 2012 7:41:44 GMT -5
The only reason I dislike this thread is because it causes too many arguments, people that could get along no longer do etc... Some people can get out of shape quick about it. I used to get enjoyment out of ruffling the holy rollers feathers, but I could care less anymore.
|
|
|
|
Post by michaelmeador on Aug 23, 2012 7:46:26 GMT -5
Oh, one last thing before I leave y'all be...
If attacking another viewpoint is a weakness, then Ryan and a few other people need to reevaluate themselves.. Just saying
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris Gobby on Aug 23, 2012 7:56:10 GMT -5
It's very interesting that atheists get frustrated so easily when discussing God. Especially considering that clicking on this thread is completely voluntary in the first place. More still, atheists don't dismiss God at all. If this thread is any indication, it is atheists who are consumed by the idea of God. I can honestly say I've never met an atheist who was ambivolent about the topic. On the contrary, it's almost like touching a raw nerve. Why? It is a human weakness to be offended or even disturbed by an opposing viewpoint. Why? Anyone sure of their own beliefs would welcome a chance to explain them. Attacking an opposing viewpiont is another weakness. A viewpoint with merit can stand on its own, it doesn't need to be compared to another viewpoint to make it sound more reasonable. An idea stands on its own or it doesn't. The reason I get frustrated over this argument is simple... Its a ridiculous one. Your belief is that of something you ve never seen, but have been taught to except from a young age. So was I.. However I stopped buying the concept of god at age 7. And at age 9 I did the same with Santa Claus. |
|
|
|
Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 23, 2012 8:03:47 GMT -5
The learning that the earth isn't flat doesn't mean we are getting smarter. We simply have access to more information.
|
|
|
|
Post by John Wilson on Aug 23, 2012 8:06:20 GMT -5
The reason I get frustrated over this argument is simple... Its a ridiculous one. Okay. I accept that's how you feel, but can I ask why? I haven't heard an opposing view yet that makes any more sense. I'm open to listening to anyone who can make their case that a universe can be created without a creator. And I don't mean just this thread. I have spent a lot of time reading and listening to alternate theories. The truth is that any theory that eliminates a creator takes more faith to believe than creation does. The math and science just don't work out. I completely understand your point about being disaffected by religion, Chris. I've been there, too. But religion is not God. |
|
;D
