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Post by Alper Cosar on Jul 27, 2010 14:29:07 GMT -5
If there is no God, then any atheist who has subjected himself to the law of society- a society made up entirely of other beings who are also cosmic accidents- works against himself for no reason. He will not subject himself to the laws of an Almighty God, but he will subject himself to the laws of common man. Yes this can be made with much more ease then you expected. It is being done right now too. You call it Secularism, dont you? All the Justice systems of secular countries are exactly functioning in the way you described. "Man made laws"
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Post by Alper Cosar on Jul 27, 2010 14:41:11 GMT -5
Quite so. Right and Wrong exists because God has created universal truth. There is such a thing as right and wrong and the arbiter of right and wrong is God. If there is no God, then there is no right and wrong- there is only survival of the fittest. If there is no God, why shouldn't you steal? Murder? Rape? Molest children? What is it in your being that you are born knowing that there is right and wrong? God. That is where it comes from. quote] Ok about this part: One is not born with right and wrong, one learns eveyrthing from the surroundings. What determines right from wrong is not religion. It is ethical commonsense.
Richard Dawkins said this better than I could ever say: "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
It is not about surviving only for the human kind but to survive and prosper in a humane way benefitting the whole human kind. That survival of the fittest comment is to counter attack Darwinism again and it is mis-used on your post.
I also dont think that non believers should be referenced as they are thiefs, child molesters, rapers. Your post is leading in a wrong direction when you use such strong references although I know you wont mean something like that.
And after all this, can you tell me where I can find a Silverback to hunt? I have my sight for one in the neighborhood just dont know what his next tourney will be?
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Post by Ryan Thames on Jul 27, 2010 14:51:14 GMT -5
Engin and alper.
Yes I mentioned Mohammad and other religions.
But I also mentioned Peter, Paul and preachers and pastors.
I do not exclude Christian "religion" and idolatry from my statement.
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Post by Michael Wells on Jul 27, 2010 15:18:06 GMT -5
Religion, in itself, is the problem. From Muslim to Christianity. It's not about the religion but the relationship. So, yes, religion is a killer. Thanks Ryan!
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Post by Alper Cosar on Jul 27, 2010 15:22:47 GMT -5
it is possible to advertise your faith without involving other faiths by meaning that they will go to hell. Alper, all those sick dictators,warriors,who did not have faith in any religion, in the history of the mankind..can we also say that they killed others because they did not have religion? religion or racism,which one was Hitler's motivation? world wars happenned because of the religions? Hitler was a roman catholic.
Stalin, Mao and others may happened to be atheist but they did not do their deeds in name of atheism.
They were kind of religious in a sense that their belief system which was idealistic, utopian, in an odd kind of way they really believed the end justified the means and that is the wholemark of a Fanatic who will kill, murder, prison in the sake of a belief system. I dont think any atheist has ever done some thing like that for the sake of atheism.
There is a distinction between somebody doing somthg in the name of religion and somebody doing smthg who happens to have a religion.
Hitler was a roman catholic like I said and it would do unjustice to say that he did all the bad things because he was a catholic. Similarly Stalin was an atheist but he did not do the things he has done in the name of atheism.
I can tell you many examples where people were motivated by religion and did many bad things. I will challange anybody to find a single case somebody did something bad by being motivated specifically by atheism. They may happen to be atheist and as I explained above that is different.
I hope this clears what I think about the classic hitler example.
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Post by Michael Wells on Jul 27, 2010 16:09:43 GMT -5
Catholicism is a whole other ball of wax. Hitler claimed to be Roman Catholic, as you say. If he was a true Roman Catholic, he would believe that God entered the world thru the incarnation of His Son, Jesus Christ. With that said, Christ preached love. That would lead me to believe that Hitler was clinched to his "religion" with NO relationship. He could claim to be 10 feet tall but doesn't mean he actually is. (no disrespect on that last statement. Just a corny analogy)
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Post by enginterzi on Jul 27, 2010 16:09:59 GMT -5
Hitler was a roman catholic. but his motivation was not his religion. no one can say that he was following Jesus' teachings while committing those crimes. Stalin, Mao and others may happened to be atheist but they did not do their deeds in name of atheism. see here you are missing an important thing.they did not have to name their ideals with Atheism.my point was that they did not believe in religion but they still committed crimes.so blaming religions as the sources of the crimes is not an objective view.crime happenned-happen-will happen with or without religious motivations. They were kind of religious in a sense that their belief system which was idealistic, utopian, in an odd kind of way they really believed the end justified the means and that is the wholemark of a Fanatic who will kill, murder, prison in the sake of a belief system. I dont think any atheist has ever done some thing like that for the sake of atheism. atheism is not a belief to follow,it denies the faith in god.atheism has no doctrine to believe in.so to say that they did not commit the crimes in the name of atheism makes no sense to me.with your understanding we can also say that,any crime that is committed with the motivations that have nothing to do with religion is the guilt of having no religion. human beings can use any motivation to satisfy their endless desires. There is a distinction between somebody doing somthg in the name of religion and somebody doing smthg who happens to have a religion. but there is also a distinction between someone who follows what his religion says and someone who "claims" to follow what his religion says but actually follows his own desires. if someone has a political view and kills someone who has another political view by using the patriotic motivations then should we blame everyone who loves their countries because of this extremist? Hitler was a roman catholic like I said and it would do unjustice to say that he did all the bad things because he was a catholic. Similarly Stalin was an atheist but he did not do the things he has done in the name of atheism. if Hitler would have followed his faith then he could not have done those things.so i believe in opposite way and say that Hitler's problem was being far from GOD. I can tell you many examples where people were motivated by religion and did many bad things. I will challange anybody to find a single case somebody did something bad by being motivated specifically by atheism. They may happen to be atheist and as I explained above that is different. I hope this clears what I think about the classic hitler example. [/b] [/quote] i can tell you many examples where people were motivated by the reasons that are against the religions and did bad things. anything that is not within the religions is within the borders of the atheism. once again,atheism is not a doctrine,so to expect evil doers to use it as a motivation makes no sense. "theism refers to a doctrine concerning the nature of a monotheistic God and his relationship to the universe." "Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists." so for the believers of GOD anyone who does not have faith in GOD is an atheist.religion is a belief,atheism is not having a belief.it is just a word to mean no faith in GOD.how can someone fight by using atheism as a motivation while it does not contain any belief?
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Post by enginterzi on Jul 27, 2010 16:15:23 GMT -5
Yes I mentioned Mohammad and other religions. But I also mentioned Peter, Paul and preachers and pastors. I do not exclude Christian "religion" and idolatry from my statement. Peter,Paul,preachers and pastors are part of your belief Ryan.i am not really interested about what you think-say of them.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Jul 27, 2010 16:30:57 GMT -5
Just saying I'm not calling out a particular religion that's all
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Post by enginterzi on Jul 27, 2010 16:37:05 GMT -5
i just dont see any difference between you sending them to hell all together by mentioning their names,and you sending them to hell by exceptions i wish you good time in heaven that you believe in,but if possible please ignore where i believe that i will go
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Post by Ryan Thames on Jul 27, 2010 17:17:27 GMT -5
RYAN , please clear my doubt: you say Christ is the only way to heaven,arent u? then do you mean all hindus , muslims and buddists are going to hell only because they dont believe/accept CHRIST AS their GOD. IS IT WISE? do u have any data that Christ himself told that he is the ONLY and only WAY TO heaven? You are a Christian right? I noticed things you said in the other thread implied you were. So i ask if your gonna believe something why not believe it full force? Jesus said "I am THE WAY. THE truth and THE life" The whole of the gospel and the entirety of the bible explains with no doubt that Christ the only way to the father. Thus the only way to heaven. The penalty for sin is death..... No other religion teaches that God fully forgives and cleanses you of sin. But through the Blood of Christ alone we have been given that opportunity. If we as creations of God refuse to accept the will and order of God and his salvation plan (the cross of Christ). There is no other option but hell. See we were all destined for hell to begin with. Due to the fall of man. But god provided a way out. Jesus is THAT WAY.
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Post by Michael Wells on Jul 27, 2010 17:20:59 GMT -5
Engin, all do respect, you commented on his post about religion, knowing his views. No harm meant bro.
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Post by enginterzi on Jul 27, 2010 17:26:19 GMT -5
. anything that is not within the religions is within the borders of the atheism. one can say that helping others can be part of a religion and can also be part of an atheist's life.the difference is with the intention.one is part of an obedience which does not have to mean "force" as it is a personal choice to believe in something which has goodness in it.the other is also a personal choice but is not a part of obedience as it is not part of belief in a superior being. i believe that all is about a test of obedience,as GOD could have allowed us to do all we want to do.for example animals,incest is not considered as a wrong thing for a dog but it is an extremely sick thing to do for human beings.GOD created good and bad,then HE created some rules and added good results in good deeds and added bad results in the bad things.and HE created us in the way to understand that the things in the way that HE created.otherwise evil deeds would not have been blamed in the history of th mankind.of course that there are differences between the way that we judge the things but that is why one day we all will be perfectly judged by the Creator. that is my belief and is not intended to disrespect anyone.
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Post by enginterzi on Jul 27, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Engin, all do respect, you commented on his post about religion, knowing his views. No harm meant bro. hi Michael, all the respect as well,he sent billions of people to hell and that is why i commented on his thread.the threads are open to the members and we are allowed to post if we would like to.i just wanted to say that it is possible to represant our faiths without disrespecting eachother's faith (sending others to hell).i know that is part of the Christian faith and i dont have a problem with it.i just thought that it was not necessary to name the others whom he believes that will go to hell. peace.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 27, 2010 17:48:05 GMT -5
it is possible to advertise your faith without involving other faiths by meaning that they will go to hell. Alper, all those sick dictators,warriors,who did not have faith in any religion, in the history of the mankind..can we also say that they killed others because they did not have religion? religion or racism,which one was Hitler's motivation? world wars happenned because of the religions? Hitler was a roman catholic.
Stalin, Mao and others may happened to be atheist but they did not do their deeds in name of atheism.
They were kind of religious in a sense that their belief system which was idealistic, utopian, in an odd kind of way they really believed the end justified the means and that is the wholemark of a Fanatic who will kill, murder, prison in the sake of a belief system. I dont think any atheist has ever done some thing like that for the sake of atheism.
There is a distinction between somebody doing somthg in the name of religion and somebody doing smthg who happens to have a religion.
Hitler was a roman catholic like I said and it would do unjustice to say that he did all the bad things because he was a catholic. Similarly Stalin was an atheist but he did not do the things he has done in the name of atheism.
I can tell you many examples where people were motivated by religion and did many bad things. I will challange anybody to find a single case somebody did something bad by being motivated specifically by atheism. They may happen to be atheist and as I explained above that is different.
I hope this clears what I think about the classic hitler example.Hitler may have been raised Catholic, but when he was in power, he dabbled in the occult. He was known to be a Satanist. So were his top men. As soon as Hitler publicly went against Catholic teachings, he excommunicated himself. He was as far from being a Roman Catholic as you could possibly be! When Hitler was in power, Albert Einstein began to take an interest in the Catholic Church because priests and Bishops were dying side by side with the Jews, willingly, in concentration camps. Catholics were the only people speaking out against the Nazis in Germany without fear for their lives. Einstein knew there was something there. Tragically Einstein died before he was able to convert to Catholism...very sad especially in light of some unkind observations he previously had regarding Christianity. You are right about Stalin not being an atheist though. He died shaking his fists at the heavens. He died as an enemy of God. All people, at some point or another, will get a chance to know God in a personal way. I have to wonder....when Dawkins has that epiphany, will he humble himself to the living God, or will he die like Stalin, an enemy of God, shaking his fists at the heavens. He's got a long road ahead of him. When Dawkins ends up going insane, or when he begins receiving treatment for psychosis, I wonder if his handlers will be able to keep the secret. Keep your eyes peeled. I hope it's not too late for the people that man suckered.
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