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Post by John Milne on Jan 31, 2013 21:55:22 GMT -5
Hell yes Mr. Russell.
Everyone gets a trophy, nobody fails, nobody loses is KILLING our society. Our children are weak and not ready for the real world (where there are no teachers to cry to).
As I said, it's a tough guy sport. If you're not a tough guy, take up checkers or take your lumps and take it like a man. Not everyone can be the alpha male in the room - FACT.
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Post by David Owens on Jan 31, 2013 22:05:40 GMT -5
Hell yes Mr. Russell. Everyone gets a trophy, nobody fails, nobody loses is KILLING our society. Our children are weak and not ready for the real world (where there are no teachers to cry to). As I said, it's a tough guy sport. If you're not a tough guy, take up checkers or take your lumps and take it like a man. Not everyone can be the alpha male in the room - FACT. I hear you an sounds like you are in a great spot where armwrestling is concerned. Taking lumps like a man sounds great but..... I weigh a buck eighty or just over that on a normal day, yet you put 95% of the novice out there and I could flash them before they ever got to engage any strength, a small portion could engage and would lose from being way out of position and 1% would be freaks that could hold their own or be too strong to do anything with, without novice classes you cannot keep people interested who are not competitive, I am all for moving them out of novice when it's time. Case in point, show up to TAA novice tournament and the classes are 10 to 15 deep and tell me how "everyone gets a trophy". If we were to do this all over in a couple years there would be a massive amount of people who would want an autograph from the master of the can opener
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Post by Giles Russell on Jan 31, 2013 22:09:01 GMT -5
For the past few years I keep thinking back to a armwraslin' match I watched when I was 16 at Waterfront Park, here in good ole' Elizabeth City, NC. At least 100 screaming rednecks met up just before sunset to watch (2) local guys who had never really left our town to armwrestle, but had a great deal of local legend status/celebrity from their feats of strength or matches they had won over the years on the hoods of pick up trucks. Word had traveled through friends of friends and the match was set. Meet me at the park at sunset on this date....Weight limits were never even considered. Back then, if you were the man, you were the man! . Best 2 outta 3. There was an official table, ref and $500 bucks on the line to the winner. I've never seen or felt so, much energy from an event as I did that night. Money flying around like crazy between spectators, screaming, yelling, Van Halen blaring (D.L.R. Van Halen, not the gay Hagar stuff), a brawl between "hype men" broke out after match 1. Straight up craziness. It was literally the talk of the town for months before and after. Long before internet, FB and Arm Tv, those two guys were celebrities and where it mattered... at HOME. I keep asking myself, how do we harness that interest and energy again? I think I know how. By the way the 2 guys were Keith "the Powells Point Playboy" Dowdy and my old man Giles Russell Sr.
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Post by David Owens on Jan 31, 2013 22:09:21 GMT -5
Also with this format and as novice classes get thicker I think having a rule such as 12 wins in competition will be very important and keep the top ones continually moving up.
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Post by Giles Russell on Jan 31, 2013 22:18:48 GMT -5
I hope to get to a point where we don't have to even have the trophy class, but it's necessary starting out to make sure I cover the funds for the "no limit" class. If we get heads in the door and keep em eating and drinking and having a ball, the money will be there up front next time. Also, I wanna make one thing clear, I have 0 interest in being a promoter. I'm an armwrestler, half-assed maybe, but I love pulling. I actually like training and practicing with my friends more than I do tournaments. I have no aspirations of putting the lifelong promoters out of a job, but I do know business and how to have a good time. If I can combine the 2 that's a perfect evening for me and my friends.
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Post by John Milne on Jan 31, 2013 22:23:23 GMT -5
I think we must agree to disagree.
I SEE it here. I see Ontario growing rapidly. I DON'T see novice classes making it grow. I see great promoters, great teams, and hungry athletes doing it.
(In our club) We try to push the mantra of earning your stripes so to speak. It's much more rewarding in the long run. Train your asz off, compete, get better, get smarter and keep on trucking forward. You really do learn much more from a loss... sure it's harder on the fragile ego but if you're smart enough and game enough you will be better for it.
If I may say that (agruably) Ontario is the fastest growing and largest region for armwrestling... and it isn't being driven by novice events.... maybe there is something to think about.
I give large credit to Joe Gould (Arm Melter) and Mike Gould (MGC) for bolstering armwrestling in Ontario. Mark Zalepa, Eric Roussin, Al Aubin and many others deserve credit too but the brothers Gould (imo) deserve the most distinction.
I've said it many times that the formula that The Arm Melter is based on is golden. Every region should have a professional league (at least within a few hours drive). Having league champions, contenders and former champions keeps the drive strong and will hopefully grow into something great.
Specialty events (like the one being mentioned) should be warmly embraced by all who wish armwrestling to have success and grow. We can have our regional, local, novice etc but these pro events are THE driving force to reach the general population.
NOBODY and I mean NOBODY outside and VERY few inside this sport care about watching or hearing about "novice" champions. If your goal is recognition and not catering to novices then to me the answer is simple.
I can say all of this with such conviction because I see it happening around me... and it's not growing on the backs of novices.
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Post by David Owens on Jan 31, 2013 22:37:41 GMT -5
I think we must agree to disagree. I SEE it here. I see Ontario growing rapidly. I DON'T see novice classes making it grow. I see great promoters, great teams, and hungry athletes doing it. (In our club) We try to push the mantra of earning your stripes so to speak. It's much more rewarding in the long run. Train your asz off, compete, get better, get smarter and keep on trucking forward. You really do learn much more from a loss... sure it's harder on the fragile ego but if you're smart enough and game enough you will be better for it. If I may say that (agruably) Ontario is the fastest growing and largest region for armwrestling... and it isn't being driven by novice events.... maybe there is something to think about. I give large credit to Joe Gould (Arm Melter) and Mike Gould (MGC) for bolstering armwrestling in Ontario. Mark Zalepa, Eric Roussin, Al Aubin and many others deserve credit too but the brothers Gould (imo) deserve the most distinction. I've said it many times that the formula that The Arm Melter is based on is golden. Every region should have a professional league (at least within a few hours drive). Having league champions, contenders and former champions keeps the drive strong and will hopefully grow into something great. Specialty events (like the one being mentioned) should be warmly embraced by all who wish armwrestling to have success and grow. We can have our regional, local, novice etc but these pro events are THE driving force to reach the general population. NOBODY and I mean NOBODY outside and VERY few inside this sport care about watching or hearing about "novice" champions. If your goal is recognition and not catering to novices then to me the answer is simple. I can say all of this with such conviction because I see it happening around me... and it's not growing on the backs of novices. Agreed!.....on at least the disagreeing part that is The goal is not catering the goal is hooking them, get them interested and then they care enough to take their lumps. Having said that I love what Giles is doing, I think there is most certainly room in the sport for both and I'm open to change in whatever way helps and love the Idea of one class events. I'm not familiar with the arm melter events, is that the triple elimination? Maybe that is the key to keeping your new guys around if they are hitting pullers their level somewhere in the event, how does this work?
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Post by Giles Russell on Jan 31, 2013 22:44:55 GMT -5
Even though it was before my time I bet you could draw a correlation between the introduction of the revenue generating/excitement killing novice classes and the downturn of mainstream appeal of the sport. I understand why folks have novice classes I guess, but it still blows my mind as to why they would make the pro/open pullers have to weigh in by 12 then sit and watch a bunch of nobody pullers from 1-2, then maybe watch the masters and then sometime between 2 and 3 the best pullers in the house finally get to drag there a$$ to the table with all the energy sapped out of them from being bored to death. Run it down to the final four, then start back over with novice guys again...WTH? The pro event is not a finale. It may be intended to be, but it ends up being an after thought, because most of the folks that showed up at 1pm to watch have peaced out and the pro's are just ready to get it over with.
To all promoters: For GOD's sake, please run the pro event first! For many reasons. The novices should be paying their dues and watching and learning what good armwrestling looks like. Then, once the pro event is over, the crowd can leave if they like because that was the show they came to see, OR if they have a loved one pulling novice, they will stay. Meanwhile, the open pullers who have paid their dues for years are either on their way back home or getting hammered and flexing on all the chicks that came to watch them "do-work" while after-pulling over in a corner somewhere. That = FUN.
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Post by David Owens on Jan 31, 2013 22:49:49 GMT -5
Even though it was before my time I bet you could draw a correlation between the introduction of the revenue generating/excitement killing novice classes and the downturn of mainstream appeal of the sport. I understand why folks have novice classes I guess, but it still blows my mind as to why they would make the pro/open pullers have to weigh in by 12 then sit and watch a bunch of nobody pullers from 1-2, then maybe watch the masters and then sometime between 2 and 3 the best pullers in the house finally get to drag there a$$ to the table with all the energy sapped out of them from being bored to death. Run it down to the final four, then start back over with novice guys again...WTH? The pro event is not a finale. It may be intended to be, but it ends up being an after thought, because most of the folks that showed up at 1pm to watch have peaced out and the pro's are just ready to get it over with. To all promoters: For GOD's sake, please run the pro event first! For many reasons. The novices should be paying their dues and watching and learning what good armwrestling looks like. Then, once the pro event is over, the crowd can leave if they like because that was the show they came to see, OR if they have a loved one pulling novice, they will stay. Meanwhile, the open pullers who have paid their dues for years are either on their way back home or getting hammered and flexing on all the chicks that came to watch the "do-work" while after-pulling over in a corner somewhere. That = FUN. That last paragraph was dead on, quest was the first event I saw in this format and it should be that way everywhere, or completely separate!
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Post by Giles Russell on Jan 31, 2013 23:11:20 GMT -5
I agree with a bunch of your philosophy too Dave. I'm sure if I had time to put on a weekly $10 entry fee novice tourney at the local watering hole and gave out a few trophies and like $50 bucks, in a short matter of time the place would fill up on Wednesday nights with locals who don't know anything about our world just to show who the man is around town and win a lil cash. I've been asked to do something like this to take the place of cornhole or karaoke. Problem is...I just don't have time.
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Post by John Milne on Jan 31, 2013 23:15:10 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with the arm melter events, is that the triple elimination? Maybe that is the key to keeping your new guys around if they are hitting pullers their level somewhere in the event, how does this work? Yes, Arm Melter is 3x elimination. Link : www.armmelter.com/Ladies 0-165 166-187 188-220 Supers Plus an Overall (R+L) Each category have right and left championship belts, including the Overall. I really like this division in weight too. You end up with pullers who would not normally face each other fighting it out. Each Champ and Contender gets paid and get an event shirt. It really is a fantastic league and once again.. I know, we're lucky here More to the point of our division. You think we need to hook them by giving the an easy ride. I think we hook them by forcing them to prove themselves. The latter is a stronger and more long term motivator, there is no doubt in my mind. If someone has had to fight, train, sweat and bleed for an accomplishment it means much, much more. There is a huge sense of pride that comes with that. Then, the goals are reset, new targets are looked at and it continues. This is your hardcore armwrestler - not trophy hunter. It's a simple difference in the way we view it. Another point: Often new guys quit after they get their little trophy, lets not forget about them. I'm sure you've seen them as well. He shows his wife, he's proud, she bangs him after and he can say "If I took it serious I'd beat all these guys" and never competes again. A shallow victory = albeit ended up with a piece of asz but still... shallow, with no turn around. Not all.. or even many novices who pull at these events continue competing. You might get one local who can hook up with a team and hangs on. More often you don't see these novices again (at least in my limited experience with novice events).
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Post by David Owens on Jan 31, 2013 23:27:09 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with the arm melter events, is that the triple elimination? Maybe that is the key to keeping your new guys around if they are hitting pullers their level somewhere in the event, how does this work? Yes, Arm Melter is 3x elimination. Link : www.armmelter.com/Ladies 0-165 166-187 188-220 Supers Plus an Overall (R+L) Each category have right and left championship belts, including the Overall. I really like this division in weight too. You end up with pullers who would not normally face each other fighting it out. Each Champ and Contender gets paid and get an event shirt. It really is a fantastic league and once again.. I know, we're lucky here More to the point of our division. You think we need to hook them by giving the an easy ride. I think we hook them by forcing them to prove themselves. The latter is a stronger and more long term motivator, there is no doubt in my mind. If someone has had to fight, train, sweat and bleed for an accomplishment it means much, much more. There is a huge sense of pride that comes with that. Then, the goals are reset, new targets are looked at and it continues. This is your hardcore armwrestler - not trophy hunter. It's a simple difference in the way we view it. Another point: Often new guys quit after they get their little trophy, lets not forget about them. I'm sure you've seen them as well. He shows his wife, he's proud, she bangs him after and he can say "If I took it serious I'd beat all these guys" and never competes again. A shallow victory = albeit ended up with a piece of asz but still... shallow, with no turn around. Not all.. or even many novices who pull at these events continue competing. You might get one local who can hook up with a team and hangs on. More often you don't see these novices again (at least in my limited experience with novice events). I hear you John you make some great points, in my experience which was more of N experiment that worked ( or at least I believe it worked) you can triple the amount of novice who come back by keeping their classes competitive this means moving people up on time and also ALL of my first place winners came back for at least one more. And at the most I did 6 in a 12 month span. I will look into the arm melter, thanks
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Post by Giles Russell on Feb 1, 2013 0:09:16 GMT -5
One last story while I'm having this awesome stream of consciousness tonight.... Last summer, an old high school friend of mine contacted me via FB about helping with a charity "ladies only" armwrestling tournament on a tiny little island called Ocracoke of the outer banks coast of NC. He goes on to tell me that for the past 3 years, they had held a ladies armwrestling tournament to raise money for the local AM radio station. He said, that the ladies dressed up in costume to keep it fun, but it had started getting more and more competitive and serious year to year. He told me that there would be at least 20 ladies pulling and the whole community would show up to watch. I called b.s. because, I've never seen more than 3 show up for a weight class lol. He also said they had been doing this thing, but they knew no rules, had no real table and wanted to make it a little more legitimate. He told me that I could advertise it on here if I wanted, but I chose to wait and see what they had going on. So, I loaded up my table and drove 4rs down the coastline, then jumped on a ferry for an hour and I found myself on the coolest little quaint island I'd ever been on. Very little vehicle traffic. Most folks walking or riding bikes. Anyway, I got there around 4pm (toruney was at 7) and made my way to town square where I found a bunch of locals working hard to set up bleachers, table, sound system, a beer garden and a boxing ring! All for this event. The town was a buzz with folks walking by and stopping to help. Anyway, near dark the girls start showing up in costume and some drinking and ready to get it on! I had decided to set their grip and keep rules to a minimum so, I didn't confuse them or the crowd. Main thing I was concerned with was not letting them get hurt. Little did I know, that was gonna be a good plan because 27 women showed up from 100lbs to 200+ and at least 100 spectators! All of the spectators had paid $5 to get in the town square. the entry fee was $10 and there was no trophies. $75, $50 and $25 was the prize money. they all came and signed up and not a damn one of the girls asked about a weight class. Now, they were all dressed up, but believe me they were all there to put on a show for the town and throw down. . I had no issues at all getting them gripped up. Not a single slip (because no one knew how to toproll...) and we had several 2+ minute long matches. The place was off the chain! In 3 hrs, they floated 5 kegs of beer! When it was all said and done a tiny little 120lb lifeguard took first place. She was solid as a brick $hit house. And hott too. After it was over (around 10pm) we carried the table across the street to the bar (which was packed elbow to elbow) where I got to teach and pull every lifeguard, fisherman, surfer and meathead on the island that night. I didn't buy a single drink, but never went thirsty that night. Good luck convincing any of those folks that I'm not the baddest puller on earth. lol, great folks down there. One of my best armwrestling experiences to date. The point of this story is, this sport is awesome on it's own. Those folks have created something incredible on that island, without our help. When ya don't know what you don't know life is good. The best woman armwrestler in the world right now is that little lifeguard and that's all that matters really. That town is hooked on arm wrestling. That night inspired me that the sport can be the biggest thing going. Sometimes, less is more folks. Here's a couple links: www.ocracokecurrent.com/36124islandfreepress.org/2012Archives/06.19.2012-27WomenArmWrestleOnOcracokeForATitleAndAGoodCauseSlideShow/index.html
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Post by John Milne on Feb 1, 2013 0:14:58 GMT -5
Awesome
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Post by Giles Russell on Feb 1, 2013 0:17:32 GMT -5
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