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Post by Jeff Janes on Feb 27, 2013 15:32:40 GMT -5
I also think if you enter a novice class with double digit entries and you win your first tournament undefeated and untested then you should then be considered NLAN=no longer a novice moving forward.
If you enter an open only tournament and hang with a couple known pullers your first go around but don't have any wins, you should be allowed to test yourself in the novice at least once, and if you dominate, move up!
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Post by Richard Jaehnigen on Feb 27, 2013 15:45:52 GMT -5
jeff janes, how long you been pulling novice? just so everyone knows I'm not out to pick on the novice, im not out looking for trophies, im still learning technique and tryng to learn more about armwrestling. yes i won tn. muscle but there were only three people in the class. and i did when ky muscle. my first real win. jeff you also forgot about 2012 midwest challenge where i placed 2nd right handed and not sure what i did left. and another thing jeff left out is that i am also pulling open as well as novice. my only win in opens has been john houston. no offense to john. i can take lumps and i am a good sport about all this. i hate to loose but i dont get upset. so dont think i am staying just to win in novice. thats not what im out here doing. i plan on pulling opens at this tourney. but i guess the tn. novice boys want there trophies..
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Post by John Milne on Feb 27, 2013 15:53:40 GMT -5
Just because you're pulling opens does not justify pulling in novice.
If you're not afraid to pull opens - why the hell are you pulling novice? What do you expect to learn in a novice class?
Learning??? I'm still learning too - that is not an excuse to pull novice either. Larratt is still learning, hopefully you'll always be learning - this does not mean it's ok to pull novice.
No excuses, you've won an open tournament and placed in several others. You will pull opens or look extremely bad pulling novice. Choice is yours (and the directors) but man, it will look pretty lame.
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Post by Justin "Bama Bull" Bishop on Feb 27, 2013 15:59:10 GMT -5
I'm not coming at anyone but based on his win record if he can pull the novice class my partner Ryan should be qualified. He has 3 wins in novice but 2 classes only had3 or 4 guys in it and he's also been pulling opens. Taylor that comments bogus! You pulled novice several years, besides as the sport grows its going to continue to get harder both to determine who should pull novice and be even harder to move up. That being said it really is determined by the one putting the tournament on and the mind of the puller (were do you think your at)
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Post by Robin the manhandler Chandler on Feb 27, 2013 16:07:38 GMT -5
My last tournament i pulled open n novice i went 0-13 i looke d pathetic
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Post by John Houston on Feb 27, 2013 16:17:19 GMT -5
I want to say a couple things about this kind of question generally, and then make a brief comment on the case of Richard in particular.
First, everyone who pursues this sport for a while will eventually face the question of when they are ready to move up. It’s a question that raises several considerations, and one that I’ve discussed with my own teammates. As a general rule, I think the considerations in play when considering this question have already been hinted at by several people here. Here are a few of them.
1. The Fairness Principle: There is something to be said for the interest of all parties concerned regarding whether it “fair” for one to be pulling novice. This extends both to the opponents of the dominant novice (who don’t stand a chance with him), and also to the novice himself, as he thinks about whether he has had enough “learning time” (See Principle 3) to be ready to move up.
2. The Safety Issue: We want this sport to be as safe as possible. This means that we don’t want killers injuring new novice pullers. However, it also means making sure that new novice pullers who get a quick and strong start in the sport have had the time to learn their form and not make stupid mistakes that will REALLY cost them against more experienced pullers. (For this reason I regard Jeff’s “NLAN” criterion of a single win in one’s first tournament to be null and void. It’s imprudent and dangerous. If that criterion were enforced, I’d discourage anyone from entering the sport, as they’d likely be injured in short order.)
3. The Learning Principle: We all want to make improvements. This means that we need to compete in contexts that challenge us. If there is no good reason to think we will be challenged at all by pulling novices, then we are no longer sportsmen, but trophy collectors. Sometimes the learning principle will mean waiting a little bit longer before moving up. Other times it will mean that we know it’s TIME to move up. This will vary from case to case, and we should have some modicum of respect for the judgment of pullers to have a say in that matter in their own cases. (See Principle #5).
4. Attending to “Official Rules”: Some rules, as I understand it, are fixed. For example, if you have three wins with a hand you can no longer compete in AAA Nationals with that hand at the Novice Division. Though such rules are not “perfect” in all cases (sometimes they require too much of the new puller, and other times not enough) they are there for a reason, and should be respected and abided by.
5. Respect for the Autonomy of the Puller Making the Decision: We need to be careful not to place undue pressure or force on people who are responsibly considering the question. Sometimes this will mean that, even if we are of the opinion that one should not pull novice, we should not be too quick to pressure them in that direction. Especially if our pressuring is motivated merely by our own self-interest or not wanting to be beaten by them at the next tournament. (As James W. pointed out, sometimes our focus should be more on improving and preparing ourselves than on trying to diminish the pool of competitors we might face).
And now, about Richard: Contrary to the comments that are being made here, Richard isn’t a whiner or “afraid to take his lumps.” If he’s asked not to pull novice, I’m confident he’ll accept that and be gracious about it. He didn’t go seeking this discussion, rather he faced opposition when he mentioned he’s interested in pulling. Let’s keep that in mind and not dog on him or imply he’s some kind of flowerbed. He isn’t.
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Post by andystidham on Feb 27, 2013 16:36:58 GMT -5
3-4 TOURNAMENT WINS AND MOVE UP. THE PULLER KNOWS DEEP INSIDE IF THEY SHOULD JUMP UP OR NOT. UNTIL THERE IS A MANATORY RULE, PULLERS HAVE THE OPTION. IF YOU DONT HAVE 3-4 TOURNAMENT WINS IMO ITS UR CHOICE.
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Taylor Beatty
Bronze Member
TENNESSEE RIVER ARMWRESTLING
Posts: 237
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Post by Taylor Beatty on Feb 27, 2013 16:40:35 GMT -5
I'm not coming at anyone but based on his win record if he can pull the novice class my partner Ryan should be qualified. He has 3 wins in novice but 2 classes only had3 or 4 guys in it and he's also been pulling opens. Taylor that comments bogus! You pulled novice several years, besides as the sport grows its going to continue to get harder both to determine who should pull novice and be even harder to move up. That being said it really is determined by the one putting the tournament on and the mind of the puller (were do you think your at) justin im startin to think you have a man crush for me, cuz every time... not sometimes but every time i post a comment on this board you have to find some pathetic attempt to argue. i started pulling in march of 2011 and pulled novice until july 2012. you cant count for sh@#. so get off my di@#
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Post by Jeff Janes on Feb 27, 2013 17:10:57 GMT -5
jeff janes, how long you been pulling novice? just so everyone knows I'm not out to pick on the novice, im not out looking for trophies, im still learning technique and tryng to learn more about armwrestling. yes i won tn. muscle but there were only three people in the class. and i did when ky muscle. my first real win. jeff you also forgot about 2012 midwest challenge where i placed 2nd right handed and not sure what i did left. and another thing jeff left out is that i am also pulling open as well as novice. my only win in opens has been john houston. no offense to john. i can take lumps and i am a good sport about all this. i hate to loose but i dont get upset. so dont think i am staying just to win in novice. thats not what im out here doing. i plan on pulling opens at this tourney. but i guess the tn. novice boys want there trophies.. How long have I been pulling novice, about 3 months longer than you: Left handed: First tournament I won left, class of 3 in July of 2011 in Murfreesboro, TN, second tournament left, I came in second class of 10, 3rd tournament left I broke my left arm to pieces which required a 10" plate and 10 screws. I was out for over 6 months and have pulled as much as I possibly can left handed and finally at IL states I was able to place 3rd left novice in a class of 6 with all but one guy brand new. That was the first time I placed left since I broke my arm. Had I never broke my dominate left arm I would be an open puller left. Right handed: I have went 2 and out more than half of my tournaments right handed. At the same KY muscle I finally did well in a larger class and placed 3rd right handed. I also placed 3rd at IL states with maybe 9 in the right handed class but almost every guy including the two that beat me were first time pullers. The TN Muscle class consisted of you, Dennis H., Eric Self, and at least two others so it was a legit win.
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Post by John Milne on Feb 27, 2013 17:33:04 GMT -5
Is this a novice, amateur and pro tournament?
Or is it amateur / pro?
I don't get the whole novice thing.
If it's only 2 categories then why not call it an am/pro tournament? There wouldn't be much argument. Either you pay more to enter pro and go for the cash or you pay less and go for a trophy/medal in amateur.
I personally see NO value in holding 3 categories (nov/am/pro). To me it's the whole modern system we have in our schools that "nobody fails" or "everyone is a winner" and "lets make everyone feel good" kind of thing.
I should avoid these threads, everyone knows how I feel anyway. I'm just ranting now.
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Post by Jeff Janes on Feb 27, 2013 17:37:28 GMT -5
I want to say a couple things about this kind of question generally, and then make a brief comment on the case of Richard in particular. First, everyone who pursues this sport for a while will eventually face the question of when they are ready to move up. It’s a question that raises several considerations, and one that I’ve discussed with my own teammates. As a general rule, I think the considerations in play when considering this question have already been hinted at by several people here. Here are a few of them. 1. The Fairness Principle: There is something to be said for the interest of all parties concerned regarding whether it “fair” for one to be pulling novice. This extends both to the opponents of the dominant novice (who don’t stand a chance with him), and also to the novice himself, as he thinks about whether he has had enough “learning time” (See Principle 3) to be ready to move up. 2. The Safety Issue: We want this sport to be as safe as possible. This means that we don’t want killers injuring new novice pullers. However, it also means making sure that new novice pullers who get a quick and strong start in the sport have had the time to learn their form and not make stupid mistakes that will REALLY cost them against more experienced pullers. (For this reason I regard Jeff’s “NLAN” criterion of a single win in one’s first tournament to be null and void. It’s imprudent and dangerous. If that criterion were enforced, I’d discourage anyone from entering the sport, as they’d likely be injured in short order.) 3. The Learning Principle: We all want to make improvements. This means that we need to compete in contexts that challenge us. If there is no good reason to think we will be challenged at all by pulling novices, then we are no longer sportsmen, but trophy collectors. Sometimes the learning principle will mean waiting a little bit longer before moving up. Other times it will mean that we know it’s TIME to move up. This will vary from case to case, and we should have some modicum of respect for the judgment of pullers to have a say in that matter in their own cases. (See Principle #5). 4. Attending to “Official Rules”: Some rules, as I understand it, are fixed. For example, if you have three wins with a hand you can no longer compete in AAA Nationals with that hand at the Novice Division. Though such rules are not “perfect” in all cases (sometimes they require too much of the new puller, and other times not enough) they are there for a reason, and should be respected and abided by. 5. Respect for the Autonomy of the Puller Making the Decision: We need to be careful not to place undue pressure or force on people who are responsibly considering the question. Sometimes this will mean that, even if we are of the opinion that one should not pull novice, we should not be too quick to pressure them in that direction. Especially if our pressuring is motivated merely by our own self-interest or not wanting to be beaten by them at the next tournament. (As James W. pointed out, sometimes our focus should be more on improving and preparing ourselves than on trying to diminish the pool of competitors we might face). And now, about Richard: Contrary to the comments that are being made here, Richard isn’t a whiner or “afraid to take his lumps.” If he’s asked not to pull novice, I’m confident he’ll accept that and be gracious about it. He didn’t go seeking this discussion, rather he faced opposition when he mentioned he’s interested in pulling. Let’s keep that in mind and not dog on him or imply he’s some kind of flowerbed. He isn’t. Part 2, the safety issue. I broke my left arm pulling novice at TN state in a class of 3. I think a new puller would be safer with a pro, than other novice pullers for two reasons: 1. You break your own arm, not the guy pulling you. 2. In my own experiences pulling open pullers, I don't even get a chance to get in a bad position, they just handle business and you really find out how they did it afterword. Also, AAA rules do state that in AAA tournaments you are disqualified pulling novice that arm if you have won 3 tournaments with said arm. (that is my understanding) Regardless the set of rules you go by WAF or AAA or JJPTOHB= "Jimmy Just Pulled Them Out His Butt" it is ultimately up to the tournament director. I did get opposition by Richard earlier when I messaged him about pulling only left novice, and he was quick to defend his case by questioning my record of pulling and where he felt he was at in his AW career. I brought it to the TAA directors and asked their input. I then brought it up to the heavyweight pullers pulling the class. I agree with about everything else you said. Heck if we went by NFA novice rules of 12 wins then almost everyone with any experience would be an open puller. This would level the playing field for the open class for sure. I also think adding an amateur class is something that would be good for the sport around here as well. All good discussion so far.
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Post by Jeff Janes on Feb 27, 2013 17:40:16 GMT -5
Is this a novice, amateur and pro tournament? Or is it amateur / pro? I don't get the whole novice thing. If it's only 2 categories then why not call it an am/pro tournament? There wouldn't be much argument. Either you pay more to enter pro and go for the cash or you pay less and go for a trophy/medal in amateur. I personally see NO value in holding 3 categories (nov/am/pro). To me it's the whole modern system we have in our schools that "nobody fails" or "everyone is a winner" and "lets make everyone feel good" kind of thing. I should avoid these threads, everyone knows how I feel anyway. I'm just ranting now. John it is a tournament geared toward novice, and the new guy. We also are offering left and right in two open weight classes. 0-198 and +199
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Post by John Milne on Feb 27, 2013 17:47:31 GMT -5
Gotcha.
So basically you're trying to bring new armwrestlers into the sport?
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Post by James Worke on Feb 27, 2013 17:48:08 GMT -5
Just throwing it out there, and i cant seem to find it at the moment, but i was almost positive that the set of rules that ky muscle goes by is one win w them and your done with novice. But it wouldnt be the first time ive been wrong.....lol
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Post by Jeff Janes on Feb 27, 2013 17:56:18 GMT -5
Gotcha. So basically you're trying to bring new armwrestlers into the sport? Yes! The goal of this tournament is as simple as TAA's mission "grow the novice" I want more training partners in my home town. I want laides to not have to travel 4-6 hours hoping there will be someone there to give them a challenge. We want as much exposure in the state, community, and nation possible, and this tournament is one tool to help spread the word.
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