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Post by John Wilson on May 24, 2013 7:59:28 GMT -5
But in terms of skeletons... I'm sorry but a dominant 154 who can sweep a 200 lb class is VERY different than a 270 behemoth who pulls a 400 lber... Sure Devon isn't the heaviest guy... But how many guys does he pull that have mechanical advantages ?... Probably 1%... And none of these guys at 300 are curling their Bodyweight... So the old hanging off your arm is mook point as well ^This is how I see it. Mechanics plays a much bigger role at the elite level than weight does, and mechanics is frame size. We're talking about world class pullers who have maximized their tool set and know how to use it. Guys on this level have basically maxed out their body's strength potential. Regardless of how much brute strength someone has, there is a limit to how much of that you can get onto the table. Any National level 154 should be able to give a National level 198 problems, but due to mechanics the 198 is going to have much better leverage. Cleve Dean, God Rest His Soul, was a giant of a man. He didn't use a lot of technique, even though if you talked to him he had an encyclopaedic knowledge of armwrestling technique. He just didn't use it. He didn't need to- you had to overcome his gargantuan size to beat him. How would he have been technical, anyway? How do you "hand wrestle" a 5 year old kid? That's how everyone felt to Cleve. Let's all get into the WAY BACK MACHINE and head to the 90's. Who here recalls Engin Terzi stalemating John Brzenk for nearly a minute? Engin thought he was going to have a stroke, but he held. That is UN-Freaking-Believable. A 150lb guy holding off a John Brzenk - in his prime- is off the charts incredible. Engin should have had no business on that table if you believe that weight = strength. Does that qualify for Lb-for-Lb? It does to me. Not only because of the 50lb difference (1/3 of Engin's body weight), but because of the extreme difference in physical scale.
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Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 8:04:55 GMT -5
if a 235 Devon pulls a 350 optiz ... Is he REALLY disadvantaged ?... Let's make a proper comparison. I'll attempt to make a controlled experiment here. Let's assume both pullers are at a "National level". Let's assume both men could potentially podium at the Nationals but aren't guaranteed to win. Both are fairly equal in terms of armwrestling quality, technique, conditioning, heart and all the intangibles. Now, who would you wager on to win? Remember, the only variable is weight. I'm of the opinion that of two equally conditioned men the bigger man has the advantage. Do you see this differently?
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Post by John Wilson on May 24, 2013 8:07:57 GMT -5
I agree with you, John- but because that weight difference is more directly related to frame size. The bigger guy will have the leverage advantage all day. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. Greg Boyes is a great example. He is way heavier than his frame size would suggest. But let's agree that he's an anomaly.
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Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 8:13:30 GMT -5
I like this topic.
I also like the way it's going. Nobody really has a dog in this fight so it should stay respectful and productive.
I don't even like the entire p4p game but I do enjoy a good conversation.
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Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 8:14:59 GMT -5
I saw Greg last night actually. He stopped by Devon's on his way to a concert. I wish he as back in the sport but I doubt that will happen.
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Post by John Wilson on May 24, 2013 8:21:00 GMT -5
I hope Greg is doing well. I met him a long time ago in Poland and he's a great guy. I really miss seeing Luke Reimer and Aaron Lengyel as well.
Speaking of:
Luke Reimer- at 242 he was a full-on beast. Just plain ridiculous power. When he cut to 198s he lost a lot of that horsepower. He could beat 99% of people on skill alone, but if you got him out of position, his 198lb self got into trouble. At 220 or 242... forget it.
Aaron Lengyel- so smart. So versatile. But again, out of position his horsepower could be matched and then he was vulnerable.
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Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 8:30:48 GMT -5
Greg seemed to be doing great, then again he's always laughing and joking, it's just his personality.
He's lifted so many heavy weights in the past that he's paying for it now. He has some injuries and soreness but he's still a tank. I asked him last night and I'm sure he said he's 39... not too old for a comeback ;D
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Post by John Wilson on May 24, 2013 8:34:45 GMT -5
I do think pound-for-pound is a good topic. There are a lot of guys are just better armwrestles than everyone else but there comes a point where the lighter guy has the short end of the lever.
The original topic is Americans, so I'll stick to that:
Craig Tullier. Does anybody with two brain cells really doubt this guy is one of the best armwrestlers alive? Nobody who has pulled him doubts it.
Cobra. Killing giants before it was cool.
Chad. unmatched horsepower, always two steps ahead. It takes a very special person to put Chad in a bad position to overcome that horsepower.
Vazgen - does anybody doubt this? Are you kidding? (Congratulation on your citizenship, sir! America is better with people like you as part of it.)
Cory Miller - results don't lie.
Kyle Knapp - crazy strong
Snook - unorthodox puller with tremendous power.
Klemba - power, brains, technique
All of these guys are way better armwrestlers than the vast majority of big guys who can beat them, in my opinion.
When I was a kid my Dad was into drag racing. I was in love with Top Fuel cars and my Dad would just shake his head. I didn't get it. "But Dad, that car just ran 300mph in the quarter!"
My Dad said, "So? That car ought to. It's a chromoly frame with 5000HP. It should go 300 miles an hour. Why wouldn't it? That's no great feat. But that 67 Coronet just ran a 10 second quarter. THAT'S IMPRESSIVE. That car should NEVER be able to do that."
My Dad was right.
If you are 6 ft 5 inches tall and weigh 300lbs, you should never lose an armwrestling match EVER. Why would you? That's cool and all, but what percentage of humans should be able to give you any trouble?
A 154lb guy beating a 200lb guy? That is impressive, because it shouldn't happen.
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Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on May 24, 2013 8:51:13 GMT -5
if a 235 Devon pulls a 350 optiz ... Is he REALLY disadvantaged ?... Let's make a proper comparison. I'll attempt to make a controlled experiment here. Let's assume both pullers are at a "National level". Let's assume both men could potentially podium at the Nationals but aren't guaranteed to win. Both are fairly equal in terms of armwrestling quality, technique, conditioning, heart and all the intangibles. Now, who would you wager on to win? Remember, the only variable is weight. I'm of the opinion that of two equally conditioned men the bigger man has the advantage. Do you see this differently? There is an impossible list of variables beyond this... What if the heavier guy has a weaker hand... What if he is heavier in the legs... What about speed and skill... You say "equal", but it can never ever be the case... That's why some guys look " huge" for 200 lbs.. But the reality is they are the same weight as the other 200 lbers. I have seen many a weigh in where guys in the class didn't look like they were in the Sam 30lb weight range and 6" separated the class too... Way... Way to many variables to just have the bigger debate... The only possible way that'd work is if you moved ahead in time and gained weight and pulled yourself at a lighter weight... Then you are pulling someone with the exact same attributes and the only variable is poundage ... Then again if you do that we have a much bigger topic on our hands. How many times do you see the heaviest guy win nats ?... Or any event ?... Depends on the guy. Look at Lupkes and Chaffee... Similar skill set... Similar strengths and attributes... "smaller" guy won... There are things like muscle density... Some have size but not quality... Others may be like a chimp and abnormally strong for what their muscle size dictates... Too much to consider... What I do have is history on my side... And when you flip through history... The bests of the bests ( besides Cleve who did lose to brzenk and goodridge) weren't the biggest guys lurking in the sport Are they ALL exceptions... Or is it the case that at a certain weight... Weight doesn't make a difference ?.... Draw your own conclusion
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Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 9:00:14 GMT -5
John you can cherry pick lighter guys if you want but please don't overlook the bigger guys here
Brzenk, Bath, Hutchings, Barboza, Bagent, Binnie, Underwood, Bresnan, etc. There are good quality armwrestlers in every weight class... not just the little guys. Each one of these guys have very good quality technique.
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Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 9:02:53 GMT -5
And none of those lighter guys are going to crack anyone on my list.
People are failing to compare high quality with high quality. Sure one of those guys could crack a bigger man and do so regularly... but not a bigger man of the same quality (and yes, they do exist)
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Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 9:06:06 GMT -5
Rob, you're missing the point.
How can you imagine a p4p list but cant imagine the two people I listed as equal. Both require subjectivity and speculation, either you have it or you don't.
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Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on May 24, 2013 9:20:43 GMT -5
I gave you a same quality with Lupkes vs Chaffee... Or vs bath... Richard is a multiple world champ...he lost to much lighter guys... How ?... Please don't say skill There is no exact equal... Every single person is a tad different. By the way... The guys in your list are half 220s... So how is that for your case when they beat other highly skilled ( underwood for example) much heavier guys ?
I stand firm that in the heavy class weight doesn't matter I don't put much into weight in general...but comparing a 250 pulling a 350 like it makes an ounce of difference... You are cooked
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Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 9:23:38 GMT -5
I was simply stating the quality of some USA hw's. Not their ability to beat heavier guys.
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Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on May 24, 2013 9:28:37 GMT -5
Fact is fact... The heaviest biggest guys haven't been the bests ... I got decades of endless styles, builds, skill sets... Work ethic... All the same results... The biggest heavyweight wasn't always the best,... In fact it's hardly the case. I could speculate, but why ?... I have all this data as proof no need for speculation... I have answers
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