|
Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on May 24, 2013 9:29:25 GMT -5
I agree... There is TOP quality in the heavy class as well
|
|
|
Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 9:34:03 GMT -5
Fact is fact... The heaviest biggest guys haven't been the bests ... I got decades of endless styles, builds, skill sets... Work ethic... All the same results... The biggest heavyweight wasn't always the best,... In fact it's hardly the case. I could speculate, but why ?... I have all this data as proof no need for speculation... I have answers I never said that the biggest hw's were the best.
|
|
|
Post by TK on May 24, 2013 9:37:32 GMT -5
TULLIER
|
|
|
Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on May 24, 2013 9:38:55 GMT -5
P4P is a great debate... I'd say you can have a legit argument...but it's subject to the quality of opponents as well... Sooo You could say roman killed everyone in his class easy... And the classes above him... This to me makes him more dominant in his realm than any heavyweights are now... Hence p4P... He is a more dominant AWer. Just looking at how people own their class you can compare it to others performance, but it's not that easy because if 2 or more superstars reside in a class you can look not as dominant because you will get tied up with said puller who is himself an animal... While the guy in a lighter talent pool might not be as great but look super untouchable due to lack of people near his level... It can be smoke in mirrors. Take Kade... He dieted to 195... And pulled 220... Why ?... He looked like a hero winning 220... But the thicker talent was 198... He recognized this and steered clear.
|
|
|
Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on May 24, 2013 9:42:42 GMT -5
Fact is fact... The heaviest biggest guys haven't been the bests ... I got decades of endless styles, builds, skill sets... Work ethic... All the same results... The biggest heavyweight wasn't always the best,... In fact it's hardly the case. I could speculate, but why ?... I have all this data as proof no need for speculation... I have answers I never said that the biggest hw's were the best. No you didnt, but you did imply that heavies have it tougher because they can face someone 100 lbs bigger ... I just don't think that 100 lbs equates to anything... Same for the light classes... People whining about 10 lbs... Makes me sick.. Most AWers are broads ... Cry cry cry and want to tailor a class so they can shimmy into first... It's gay..,
|
|
|
Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 9:56:55 GMT -5
I hate the wining too.
It's a strength combat sport, not a knitting contest.
|
|
|
Post by JAMIE SHELDON on May 24, 2013 10:17:09 GMT -5
Whinning aside, and I don't whine, I'm naturally about 160 so I pull 154. And if the lowest is 165, I will gain to 165. But, why have weight classes then? Who made these classes? Why does nationals split up lighter divisions by 10 pounds? So the whiners can cut? Or so the little guys can think its fair? I'm curious to hear what one of the "whiners" thinks? -I'm not a whiner, I don't cry when I lose, but I am considered a little guy in this COMBAT sport. "Losers whine about their best, Winners go home and f*** the prom queen." - Sean Connery
|
|
|
Post by John Wilson on May 24, 2013 10:21:51 GMT -5
John you can cherry pick lighter guys if you want but please don't overlook the bigger guys here Brzenk, Bath, Hutchings, Barboza, Bagent, Binnie, Underwood, Bresnan, etc. There are good quality armwrestlers in every weight class... not just the little guys. Each one of these guys have very good quality technique. Agreed. But we are all on the same page, because you're talking about ELITE pullers. Elite means you are cherry picking by definition. Anyone who would be considered a P4P BEST is by definition Elite or very close to it. Of course all the guys you mention are awesome. They are elite. They are the best and will only lose to other guys on that list, by and large. I didn't mean to say that the lighter guys I listed are better than the big guys you listed. But size matters, and those elite big guys OUGHT to win against anybody. So, back to size (*rather than weight) Tullier should not beat a 220lb guy, based on size. Yet he does- all the time. That's P4P. How do you measure P4P with a guy who walks around at 230lbs? That's a middle-size guy to armwrestlers, but that's a BIG DUDE in the general population. He's as physically big as anybody he's likely to pull against. He might lose, but it won't have much of anything to do with size. Tullier cannot say that. A man of his frame has a distinct disadvantage of leverage compared to Dave Chaffee. Tullier is light years beyond me in talent, skill, experience- you name it. But I'm a pretty strong guy with a larger frame. I could give him trouble if I could manage to stop him. Yet the fact is I am nowhere in the man's league. Frame size matters here, because he is as strong as I am at a lot less weight.
|
|
|
Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 10:27:07 GMT -5
I don't mind guys cutting weight, it's not my business. I have no problem with it. However I don't like the ones who whine about how hard it is, how much they're suffering, how much they are starving, etc just to make a weight class they have to cut into.
I don't intend to say that every person who cuts whines about it. I just don't like the ones who do complain.
I guess I also don't really like it when someone cuts to 123 or 132 so they can aw kids.
|
|
|
Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 10:33:12 GMT -5
John you can cherry pick lighter guys if you want but please don't overlook the bigger guys here Brzenk, Bath, Hutchings, Barboza, Bagent, Binnie, Underwood, Bresnan, etc. There are good quality armwrestlers in every weight class... not just the little guys. Each one of these guys have very good quality technique. Agreed. But we are all on the same page, because you're talking about ELITE pullers. Elite means you are cherry picking by definition. Anyone who would be considered a P4P BEST is by definition Elite or very close to it. Of course all the guys you mention are awesome. They are elite. They are the best and will only lose to other guys on that list, by and large. I didn't mean to say that the lighter guys I listed are better than the big guys you listed. But size matters, and those elite big guys OUGHT to win against anybody. So, back to size (*rather than weight) Tullier should not beat a 220lb guy, based on size. Yet he does- all the time. That's P4P. How do you measure P4P with a guy who walks around at 230lbs? That's a middle-size guy to armwrestlers, but that's a BIG DUDE in the general population. He's as physically big as anybody he's likely to pull against. He might lose, but it won't have much of anything to do with size. Tullier cannot say that. A man of his frame has a distinct disadvantage of leverage compared to Dave Chaffee. Tullier is light years beyond me in talent, skill, experience- you name it. But I'm a pretty strong guy with a larger frame. I could give him trouble if I could manage to stop him. Yet the fact is I am nowhere in the man's league. Frame size matters. I only listed elite pullers because you did John. I was just making a comparison. Btw, I'm 230 and no where near the size of most of my opponents (by frame size). And to quote you "Tullier should not beat a 220lb guy, based on size. Yet he does- all the time. That's P4P. " No, that's not p4p unless he's pulling someone who isn't of his quality, experience, etc. That's an elite lighter guy beating a random 220 guy.
|
|
|
Post by John Wilson on May 24, 2013 10:45:47 GMT -5
No, that's not p4p unless he's pulling someone who isn't of his quality, experience, etc. That's an elite lighter guy beating a random 220 guy. Touche. That's a legit argument. It's also the argument that RVJ made, which is that the variables are beyond the realm of calculation. Who exactly is of the same quality, experience, etc as any other person? Nobody unless you could pull yourself at a higher weight. So let's be realistic. How do you compare? I say if a guy is a contender to place at Nationals, he's good enough for comparison. In reality, that guy is better than the majority of armwrestlers will ever be. P4P will always be subjective. John Brzenk at 198lbs was the most dominant armwrestler the world has ever seen. Now he's bigger, but the best John of all time was 198lbs. That's P4P. Engin Terzi, in my opinion, was the best lightweight puller ever. I say technically as good as John B. But size has it's limits. It still took someone on the order of John B, or someone who could pull with John, to beat Engin in his prime. That's P4P. What this discussion always devolves into is: Could a 200lb Engin beat a 200lb John? Or, could a 154lb John beat a 154lb Engin? That's a pointless exercise.
|
|
|
Post by John Milne on May 24, 2013 10:56:41 GMT -5
Just using myself as an example.
This "me" would smash the lighter "me" because I'm bigger. However, I can assume I'm of better quality now as well because I'm still training and learning. I stopped restricting myself and allowed myself to grow, with that came strength. For me personally, weight and size did matter. Moving forward I'm not sure if 10 more pounds would help me greatly though so I can agree with RVJ that it does not always matter, but in some cases it does.
As I moved away from 198 and into the higher class my ranking in Canada actually went up. The 198's tend to be a very competitive class in North America though, more so than many others. When heavier, I became competitive with almost any armwrestler here (still a few exceptions of course) where I was not at 198.
To summarize I feel that in terms of p4p I am better now at this heavier weight than when I was lighter.
|
|
|
Post by John Wilson on May 24, 2013 10:59:27 GMT -5
Conversely, let's look at what P4P is not.
Bagent. One of, if not the best, left handed puller ever. Binnie, Bagent... this is a very select group on the planet.
Travis won AAA Nationals at 187 lbs in 1998 (? can't remember exact year) in Bakersfield, CA. I can't remember exactly if he won right or left. Back then, the 187s pulled in the 198lb class left handed because WAF did not mirror Left / Right classes then.
Anyhoo.
Bagent at 260lbs comes along and he's AWESOME. 187/198lb Travis (National Champion, mind you) is not even in the same ballpark as 260lb travis. Travis is awesome, but he's not P4P best because you can compare himself directly to himself.
Michael Todd. Michael was an outstanding 198lb puller. Several National titles. Technical, table smart, explosive... fantastic puller. Michael Todd at 260lbs? Enter Monster Michael Todd. Elite without a doubt. Not a P4P best, because we can compare him to his 200lb self, and just like Travis was a great 200lb puller but would have no chance against his 260lb self.
|
|
|
Post by John Wilson on May 24, 2013 11:05:06 GMT -5
Just using myself as an example. This "me" would smash the lighter "me" because I'm bigger. However, I can assume I'm of better quality now as well because I'm still training and learning. I stopped restricting myself and allowed myself to grow, with that came strength. For me personally, weight and size did matter. Moving forward I'm not sure if 10 more pounds would help me greatly though so I can agree with RVJ that it does not always matter, but in some cases it does. As I moved away from 198 and into the higher class my ranking in Canada actually went up. The 198's tend to be a very competitive class in North America though, more so than many others. When heavier, I became competitive with almost any armwrestler here (still a few exceptions of course) where I was not at 198. To summarize I feel that in terms of p4p I am better now at this heavier weight than when I was lighter. Okay. Good point. Who can you beat now, that you could not beat before? How much has to do with weight versus just getting better? I don't think Michael Todd is a better armwrestler now than he was at 200lbs. He was already great. I don't think Travis is better now than he was at 200lbs. He was already smart, fast, tricky.
|
|
|
Post by Casey Szparaga on May 24, 2013 11:08:05 GMT -5
John, not being sarcastic, but I'm reasonably sure Travis was 220/242 in Bakerfield. I think he took a 1st and 2nd to Bucky Russell.
Sorry to but in. Please continue everyone.
|
|